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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:22 pm 
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At this point, it's basically grown into a complete overhaul of both the gameplay and the script.

The goals of our gameplay changes are to make all of the different attacks, particularly straight-up fighting, more strategically appealing, and to basically make the game less of an Ultima spam-fest. Equally importantly, we want to make the characters more distinct from one another instead of them all being the same blank template with a different special attack. The biggest major change that we're trying to implement which will make both of those goals possible is to restrict the use of each esper to only certain characters, which allows us to control both spell availability and the stats which each character can choose to raise.

Of course, we've also completely rebalanced just about every other aspect of the game while we were at it, including every spell, esper, blitz/bushido, rages, dances, lores, items, equipment, relics, shops, the colosseum, and a bunch of stuff I'm probably leaving out. If you want to see the current changelog (which gets updated frequently), you can see it here:

http://btb2.free.fr/temp/ff6.txt

As for the script, we originally intended only to clean up the grammar and some rogue Engrish. We've since expanded our goal to combine the best parts of the original Ted Woolsey translation with the original Japanese (the Advance translation can suck a dick) and a fair serving of our own, warped senses of creativity. The end result is something that I personally feel will be a *huge* improvement over any existing version of the script. For obvious reasons, however, I can't really disclose too much more than that.

The current status of the project is nearing an Alpha release. We're hoping to have a beta version ready to go by December-ish (subject to change, obviously), at which point we'd be needing people who might want to help us. If you're interested... let me know.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Definitely interested in a big way. If you need an alpha- or beta-tester let me know.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Definitely will do.

I'm hoping to get an alpha version ready by the end of the week, which will let me make most of the rougher adjustments. As for what we'd be looking for in beta testing, it's going to mostly involve making sure none of the dialogue fucks up in weird ways we weren't expecting/didn't notice, and pretty much more of the same for the gameplay.

For the gameplay, specifically, I'll want to know if it's too hard, too easy, if there's any one attack/skill/item that you spam relentlessly because it's awesome, or one that you just ignore completely because it sucks big donkey dick. You can see a lot of what I'm aiming for in the changelog, but a *lot* of that is rooted entirely in theory.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Sounds pretty awesome, good luck.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Neon Jackal wrote:
Sounds pretty awesome, good luck.


Thanks... we'll need it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:07 am 
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Oh. My lawd.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:12 am 
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Fallout wrote:
Oh. My lawd.


You should see the script. I wet myself every time I go over it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:03 pm 
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I'm more interested in the gameplay stuff. There's a guy on the minibosses board who's been working on something similar, trying to make all the characters/abilities/weapons viable and in general make the game somewhat challenging as opposed to how easy the original was. I played it up until the Magitech Reasearch Facility...it's good in some ways but I don't like how difficult it is to get money and how big of a difference certain weapons/armor make, and some characters/abilities STILL don't seem very useful (runic is still useless and morph still can't be used often enough to really be worthwhile). Here's the thread if you're interested.

http://theshizz.org/forum/index.php?/to ... -rom-edit/

I have always really wanted to play a version of FF6 which is challenging and has balanced and distinct characters, so...good luck! I look forward to hearing about your progress. In terms of the script changes, my feelings are a bit different...I played the fanslation of the SNES version back in the day, I think Sky Render did it? I wasn't a big fan...I think just for nostalgia reasons. I hate seeing any of my favorite lines changed. Would you be adverse to releasing the script changes and the gameplay changes as two separate patches?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:02 am 
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Morte_The_Skull wrote:
I'm more interested in the gameplay stuff. There's a guy on the minibosses board who's been working on something similar, trying to make all the characters/abilities/weapons viable and in general make the game somewhat challenging as opposed to how easy the original was. I played it up until the Magitech Reasearch Facility...it's good in some ways but I don't like how difficult it is to get money and how big of a difference certain weapons/armor make, and some characters/abilities STILL don't seem very useful (runic is still useless and morph still can't be used often enough to really be worthwhile). Here's the thread if you're interested.

http://theshizz.org/forum/index.php?/to ... -rom-edit/


I'll have to have a look at it. However, based on what you've said, I think that our mod will be an entirely different beast. I am very much trying to avoid any item, equipment, spells, or skills far outclassing everything else, as well as trying to make everything worthwhile.

"Trying", of course, being the operative word.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
I have always really wanted to play a version of FF6 which is challenging and has balanced and distinct characters, so...good luck! I look forward to hearing about your progress.


The current progress is that I am now editing the battle scripts, which is the last major edit I have to do before we can proceed to alpha testing.

I'm having a lot of fun with the various conditionals that exist in the game's code, but were used very scarcely (and very unimaginatively) by the original programmers.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
In terms of the script changes, my feelings are a bit different...I played the fanslation of the SNES version back in the day, I think Sky Render did it? I wasn't a big fan...I think just for nostalgia reasons. I hate seeing any of my favorite lines changed. Would you be adverse to releasing the script changes and the gameplay changes as two separate patches?


Actually, one of our biggest aims in the translation was to avoid the "obvious fan translation" feel to it. Our goal is to retain all of the good parts of the Woolsey translation, while changing the parts that... well, didn't work as well. So, we'd be particularly interested in feedback from the perspective of a "purist" like yourself in terms of how well we accomplished that.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Just a bit of a status update, since I can't really mention this stuff much in the changelog.

I am currently working on battle scripts. Before starting on them, I edited the "special" attack of every enemy and their Sketch/Control lists. These two things combined have given me a very good idea of what kind of attacks I want each monster to have.

When I began working on the battle scripts, there were exactly 6 free bytes of space in the data bank where battle scripts are stored. Not even halfway through the monster list, and without even trying, I freed up somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 bytes. I removed very little in the process, and in fact added quite a bit. What does this say about the game's original programmers? Well, I have a nice, fat cock they can all suck on, for starters.

With so much free space, I'm once again starting from the top and going back through each enemy script. While I can't necessarily make them "intelligent", I can certainly make them all more interesting. There are quite a few conditionals that exist in the code that the game uses sparsely and not very imaginatively. Again, Squaresoft can fellate me. By scripting different enemies to react differently to a wider variety of situations and attacks my goal is to encourage a wider variety of attacks in battle and to make the game slightly more difficult and interesting (although not retardedly so).

I will admit up front, however, that I've been playing a lot of I Wanna Be The Guy these days, and I'd be remiss if I said it hasn't influenced me >.>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:48 pm 
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traditional JRPGS are the easiest type of game to code, and most developers really blow at programming. go forth and butt rape the heroes of nostalgia.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:23 am 
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That mod I posted a bit ago had some interesting and pretty clever enemy strategies, like an enemy that casts berserk on the party and then vanish on itself. RAAAGE.


Also, out of curiosity, what are you doing to balance out the characters? I assume you're powering down magic a bit so that casters aren't as retardedly better than fighters this time around, but in terms of individual characters what's the plan? I've always had complaints about a lot of the characters and how they worked.

Sabin's stats would make him look like a physical attacker, but his claws fucking blow compared to the weapons most other characters get, and his best blitzes are all based on his magic stat. This effectively makes his high attack stat worthless. Are you planning to maybe make more of his blitzes physical rather than magical?

Cyan...is Cyan. Swordtech is worthless because it just takes too damn long and holds up the rest of the party, and he can't use the best weapons to even attack traditionally. Do you have a plan for any way to rework swordtech?

Umaro is both my favorite character and probably the worst. I'm really interested to see what you do about him. The lack of Esper boosts really fucks him over; it's fine that he can't use magic, but he can't even raise his attack with Espers. Not sure how you'd want to correct that.

Mog is good throughout the whole game but for different reasons; in the World of Balance his dances are amazing and by the time you get him back in the World of Ruin they're completely outclassed, but he gets the snow muffler and with dragon boots/dragon horn he becomes an awesome dragoon-tank. This is cool, but never actually seemed to make much sense with his character, and it's a shame that dance is so worthless after the mid-game. Is there any way of fixing that? I can't really think how...as far as I know there's no way of adding new moves to his existing dances, is there? And probably no way of adding more dances for the WoR? I'm interested to hear how you guys are handling the little guy.

And of course there's the issues I mentioned with Runic being totally useless and Morph being too situational to really do much of anything.

Basically I'm excited about this and would love to know what your plans are for the character balancing and whatnot.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:12 am 
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BTB wrote:
Just a bit of a status update, since I can't really mention this stuff much in the changelog.

I am currently working on battle scripts. Before starting on them, I edited the "special" attack of every enemy and their Sketch/Control lists. These two things combined have given me a very good idea of what kind of attacks I want each monster to have.

When I began working on the battle scripts, there were exactly 6 free bytes of space in the data bank where battle scripts are stored. Not even halfway through the monster list, and without even trying, I freed up somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 bytes. I removed very little in the process, and in fact added quite a bit. What does this say about the game's original programmers? Well, I have a nice, fat cock they can all suck on, for starters.

With so much free space, I'm once again starting from the top and going back through each enemy script. While I can't necessarily make them "intelligent", I can certainly make them all more interesting. There are quite a few conditionals that exist in the code that the game uses sparsely and not very imaginatively. Again, Squaresoft can fellate me. By scripting different enemies to react differently to a wider variety of situations and attacks my goal is to encourage a wider variety of attacks in battle and to make the game slightly more difficult and interesting (although not retardedly so).

I will admit up front, however, that I've been playing a lot of I Wanna Be The Guy these days, and I'd be remiss if I said it hasn't influenced me >.>



Isn't this written in assembly? I had no idea you were so l33t. You don't even have the joy of decompiled C...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:56 am 
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Morte_The_Skull wrote:
That mod I posted a bit ago had some interesting and pretty clever enemy strategies, like an enemy that casts berserk on the party and then vanish on itself. RAAAGE.


That's some good trollin', but it's not my particular style.

I'd give you some examples, but then I wouldn't be trollin' anymore >.>


Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Also, out of curiosity, what are you doing to balance out the characters? I assume you're powering down magic a bit so that casters aren't as retardedly better than fighters this time around, but in terms of individual characters what's the plan? I've always had complaints about a lot of the characters and how they worked.


The answer to that question is pretty much everything that's listed in the changelog I posted. The biggest change is the restriction of certain espers to certain characters, which gives each character both a unique set of spells as well as a unique set of attributes that can be raised. Aside from that, equipment factors a lot into it, as well. For example...

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Sabin's stats would make him look like a physical attacker, but his claws fucking blow compared to the weapons most other characters get, and his best blitzes are all based on his magic stat. This effectively makes his high attack stat worthless. Are you planning to maybe make more of his blitzes physical rather than magical?


...Sabin is pretty much Yang on steroids now. His claws are weak in power compared to other weapons, but their strength lies in their elemental properties and random status spell casts. He'll always be wielding two of them, because Sabin is one of three characters that can no longer equip shields (the other two being Cyan and Shadow). Speaking of Cyan...

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Cyan...is Cyan. Swordtech is worthless because it just takes too damn long and holds up the rest of the party, and he can't use the best weapons to even attack traditionally. Do you have a plan for any way to rework swordtech?


We've applied a patch to the game that speeds up the charge meter. However, the patch has been altered so that it charges up *much* faster, and thus the challenge becomes accurately stopping on the skill you want/

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Umaro is both my favorite character and probably the worst. I'm really interested to see what you do about him. The lack of Esper boosts really fucks him over; it's fine that he can't use magic, but he can't even raise his attack with Espers. Not sure how you'd want to correct that.


Umaro big. Umaro smash. Umaro fucking boring character.

'eh, I've boosted his stats quite significantly because I'm operating under the assumption that most people won't notice and still won't use him. He's damn nice to have for the Colosseum, though.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Mog is good throughout the whole game but for different reasons; in the World of Balance his dances are amazing and by the time you get him back in the World of Ruin they're completely outclassed, but he gets the snow muffler and with dragon boots/dragon horn he becomes an awesome dragoon-tank. This is cool, but never actually seemed to make much sense with his character, and it's a shame that dance is so worthless after the mid-game. Is there any way of fixing that? I can't really think how...as far as I know there's no way of adding new moves to his existing dances, is there? And probably no way of adding more dances for the WoR? I'm interested to hear how you guys are handling the little guy.


Dance and Rage fall in the same boat of being difficult to keep relevant into the WoR without overpowering them. Mog was a bit easier to handle because he's one of the few characters who gets magic boosts from espers, which thus raise the damage from dances. He's also a lot more random than Gau, so I focused largely on making the less-common dance moves significantly more powerful.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
And of course there's the issues I mentioned with Runic being totally useless and Morph being too situational to really do much of anything.


We're working on a replacement for Runic, but it's not something that will make it into a beta. Morph is fine, though I do take issue with its recharge time.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:07 am 
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Fallout wrote:
BTB wrote:
Isn't this written in assembly? I had no idea you were so l33t. You don't even have the joy of decompiled C...


Well, I'm using an editor with a GUI. The closest I'm coming to actually working with the code is editing the battle scripts, which are written in hex (and for which the editor does not provide helpful information).

My partner is the one who's actually working in the assembly. He's the one that actually has to find out a way to implement every idea I have that won't work in the editor.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:43 am 
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BTB wrote:
Fallout wrote:
BTB wrote:
Isn't this written in assembly? I had no idea you were so l33t. You don't even have the joy of decompiled C...

My partner is the one who's actually working in the assembly. He's the one that actually has to find out a way to implement every idea I have that won't work in the editor.

i want one of those.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:44 pm 
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:( No love for Umaro? That makes me sad. I mean, yeah, as he was initially implemented he was boring, but...I mean. He's a Sasquatch. I think I just really like Sasquatches, but like, playing as a little kid I always loved Umaro. I think it was partially because he's big and fluffy and punches things and largely because of all the mystery with the whole "hidden character" thing. There's a whole dungeon leading up to him; it's disappointing when you actual get him and find out he's worthless.
Would it be a doable thing to make it so he CAN equip espers, but just can never access the "magic" command during battle? And limit his Espers to only ones that boost attack?


In terms of Celes, if you haven't thought of a good replacement for Runic, I had an idea. Why not give her a powered up version of the Magitech armor abilities? How hard would that be to implement? It seems like it would fit with her character-wise, what with being a sort of battle-mage type to begin with.



I really like the way you're doing it with only giving certain characters access to certain espers. Makes for more distinct party members even after esper boosts change everything, which is a good idea.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:22 pm 
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S1eepy wrote:
BTB wrote:
Fallout wrote:
BTB wrote:
Isn't this written in assembly? I had no idea you were so l33t. You don't even have the joy of decompiled C...

My partner is the one who's actually working in the assembly. He's the one that actually has to find out a way to implement every idea I have that won't work in the editor.

i want one of those.


An editor, or a partner? >.>

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
:( No love for Umaro? That makes me sad. I mean, yeah, as he was initially implemented he was boring, but...I mean. He's a Sasquatch. I think I just really like Sasquatches, but like, playing as a little kid I always loved Umaro. I think it was partially because he's big and fluffy and punches things and largely because of all the mystery with the whole "hidden character" thing. There's a whole dungeon leading up to him; it's disappointing when you actual get him and find out he's worthless.


What bores me about both him and Gogo is that there's no real reason to use either of them since there's no room for them when storming Kefka's Tower.

As it stands, they both have exactly one use each. Umaro is great of the Colosseum, and Gogo is great for the Fanatics Tower.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Would it be a doable thing to make it so he CAN equip espers, but just can never access the "magic" command during battle? And limit his Espers to only ones that boost attack?


It's be kinda pointless. Vigor caps out pretty easily and is a very minor contributor to damage output. I've also boosted his quite a bit, anyway.

Thing is, Umaro is a boring, one-dimensional character. But that's his role. All that I could really do without disrupting it is make him statistically stronger.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
In terms of Celes, if you haven't thought of a good replacement for Runic, I had an idea. Why not give her a powered up version of the Magitech armor abilities? How hard would that be to implement? It seems like it would fit with her character-wise, what with being a sort of battle-mage type to begin with.


We plan on giving her a "Sword Magic" ability that's sort of like the enchant ability from FF5 (which I never played - I'm going based on what I'm told). As far as how difficult it would be to implement, that's entirely my partner's deal.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
I really like the way you're doing it with only giving certain characters access to certain espers. Makes for more distinct party members even after esper boosts change everything, which is a good idea.


Oh, definitely. I also think it will help the more underrated spells see a lot more use. Demi/Quartr in particular should see a lot more use, as they no longer fail against ID-immune targets.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Never played FFV? What the fuck dog

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Never played FFV? What the fuck dog

PS1 Classic now.
I think FFVI has been rated too.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:51 pm 
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I'm curious if you're altering anything with the Desperation moves (the psudeo-limit breaks that never fucking occur.) I'm trying to think of how the coding of the moves could be altered so that you could actually use them everyone once in a while. Maybe something that keeps track of how much damage a character takes and once x amount of damage has been reached the move becomes available? I'm sure you're working on this already but I was just curious. I've spent over a hundred hours playing FFVI and have only seen one Desperation move. Granted, this might be because the moves are only set to trigger if a character has critical HP and the game is so easy that that scenario almost never happens.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:01 pm 
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I think "you don't have enough spaces to take them into Kefka's tower" is sort of a weird argument for why Umaro/Gogo are useless, considering that if you regularly DO take them that could be said of any other two characters. Also, I always do just the opposite, that is, I use Umaro for Fanatics tower since he can still use physical attacks there and I find that funny, and use Gogo for the Colosseum because I can give him access to only the commands I want him to use, so he's great for stealing there among other things. I do see your point about Umaro being, battle-wise, kind of boring, but I guess that's why I'd like to see something new or interesting done with him. Still, just making him a shit ton stronger is pretty fun as well.


I had thought something like the sword magic from FF5 would be good for Celes, I just kind of figured that would be impossible to implement in FF6's engine. And yeah dude, you should play FF5. It has perhaps a less "serious" story than other Final Fantasy games, but that's far from an awful thing, and the job system is really cool. I actually like the GBA translation of that one because the silliness and pop-culture reference fit with the less serious tone of the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Cid_Highwind wrote:
TheBatman wrote:
Never played FFV? What the fuck dog

PS1 Classic now.
I think FFVI has been rated too.


The PS1 version had the worst localization ever

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:07 am 
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Bubble Man wrote:
I'm curious if you're altering anything with the Desperation moves (the psudeo-limit breaks that never fucking occur.) I'm trying to think of how the coding of the moves could be altered so that you could actually use them everyone once in a while. Maybe something that keeps track of how much damage a character takes and once x amount of damage has been reached the move becomes available? I'm sure you're working on this already but I was just curious. I've spent over a hundred hours playing FFVI and have only seen one Desperation move. Granted, this might be because the moves are only set to trigger if a character has critical HP and the game is so easy that that scenario almost never happens.


Desperation attacks have a 1 in 20 chance of being used when the "fight" command is selected and a character has the "near fatal" status. The reason you never see them is because neither condition ever occurs with any amount of regularity.

However, with the changes I'm making, I imagine that both conditions will be met on a much more frequent basis.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
I think "you don't have enough spaces to take them into Kefka's tower" is sort of a weird argument for why Umaro/Gogo are useless, considering that if you regularly DO take them that could be said of any other two characters.


While the same could be said of any of the other characters, it just feels wrong leaving any of them out of the raid.

Kefka's Tower is the lone incentive to focus on developing your entire roster instead of just a core team, meaning that two characters are going to get left by the wayside as a natural result, Umaro and Gogo, being the last ones in, are the most likely to fall victim to this.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
Still, just making him a shit ton stronger is pretty fun as well.


Well, I *have* done that.

Morte_The_Skull wrote:
I had thought something like the sword magic from FF5 would be good for Celes, I just kind of figured that would be impossible to implement in FF6's engine. And yeah dude, you should play FF5. It has perhaps a less "serious" story than other Final Fantasy games, but that's far from an awful thing, and the job system is really cool. I actually like the GBA translation of that one because the silliness and pop-culture reference fit with the less serious tone of the game.


There's a lot of games on my "to play" list, but right now this mod is my top priority. I swear, I'm actually *dreaming* about battle scripts these days.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:47 am 
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The NESkimullet
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Location: Houston, Texas
I didn't get as much done last night as I'd hoped. I only got a few areas done, but since one of those areas was the Phoenix Cave, I felt completely justified in the extra time and care I spent making the enemies more interesting and diverse. As I move further into the World of Ruin, I'm noticing that the scripts are becoming longer - I'm down to under 300 bytes of free space from my original 600. Granted, I know of at least three places off the top of my head where I could go and easily clear up another few hundred bytes without affecting the game nearly at all, so it's not as if I'm exactly hurting for space.

It's funny how the further I get into working on a mod, the more respect I lose for the people who programmed it originally. Finding out that one of your favorite games was slapped together by a bunch of slave-wage code monkeys is sorta like finding out that Santa Clause isn't real or that your mom's tits are fake. I think one of the event dumps I was reading said it best when it stated that the game's code is so wasteful that somewhere out there, there's an elderly Native American looking at it with a tear streaming down his cheek. But, I digress...

I strongly believe that what's left of the World of Ruin aside from Kefka's Tower should go much faster. Up until Daryl's Tomb, you're playing with a more or less set party that I can predict and cater my scripting toward. I can also correctly estimate most of your party in the Phoenix Cave. Aside from that, however, all bets are off and I just have to make enemies respond more globally. For example, I ran through all of the Narshe enemy scripts in about twenty minutes, whereas the Phoenix Cave took up several hours.

Aside from making enemies more reactive to your party and making sure that any one skill or attack doesn't reign supreme above all others, I'm also having to check on battle formations as I progress. Since many more enemies will now counter attack, I need to make sure that you don't encounter a situation where you get ganked by four or five of the same enemies all countering the same multi-target attack (or at least make it unlikely). Furthermore, there are many enemies which appeared way too infrequently, and thus I had to shoehorn them into other formations. The list of formations that I've edited has become quite long.

All said and done, I think that several attacks and skills that were previously underused - Runic and Reflect of particular note - should be much more useful now due to the nature of the enemy behavior.

As for what's left, I have:

Umaro's Cave
Gogo's Cave
Ebot's Rock
Ancient Castle
Cyan's Nightmare
Fanatic's Tower
Kefka's Tower

The Fanatics Tower is sort of the wild card of the bunch. Depending on how I can work with it, it'll either go by very quickly, or take me forever. Kefka's Tower is just plain *loaded*, so that's a different story altogether. And that's not even to mention the bosses...

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