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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:14 pm 
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I can't tell if Batman's image link became broken or if he's making a really profound statement by posting a broken image link.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:21 pm 
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gimp wrote:
Surely most of us are mature enough to have this conversation without resorting to either fanboyism or inverse-fanboyism.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:24 pm 
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TheBatman wrote:
gimp wrote:
Surely most of us are mature enough to have this conversation without resorting to either fanboyism or inverse-fanboyism.

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if you can think of a better way to refer to all those products succinctly i'd like to hear it. moot point anyway, i was talking about Apple. If i was suggesting nobody should have an opinion we'd have nothing to talk about.


edit: oh oh, i did! iPoops

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:40 pm 
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gimp wrote:
Again to Napalm: The iPod scroll wheel and the iPad and iPhone touch screens are not intuitive to use. Don't put Apple computers user-friendliness in the same boat as Steve Jobs - since he took over they have tended to go for alternatives to the norm over the purest simplicity.



You serious? When I got an iPod I figured it out in about five seconds.

iPhone - touch it. It does something. Pinch-to-zoom. How is this anything but intuitive?

"alternatives to the norm over the purest simplicity" - I'm not sure what you mean by that? Again, it's always been about simplifying.

Steve Jobs went to Xerox to check out their GUI stuff in 1979. When he did, he noticed things like, you could only scroll through text in giant chunks, as opposed to just continuously scrolling through it. The same Xerox machine had a ton of buttons on the mouse, he figured you could create a GUI that only needed one.

I know the mouse button thing is people go nuts over - and yeah, I like having multiple buttons on my mouse. But making computers simple and easy to use is how you get them into the home.

I think the iPad is the new version of a one-button mouse. You wanna do super basic computer tasks without a lot of fuss? The iPad works great. I know a few people that use one as their main computer. For me? Waste of money. For them? It's great.

The guy knew how to take things and make them great for your average person. I feel like i'm the only one *not* being a fanboy and looking at these things objectively here.

You want somebody to use your product? Make it retard-easy. Done and done.

I, I get so annoyed when I talk computers with people, because, I mean. I do things with computers that are pretty bonkers. I've written compilers. I program in a bunch of languages. I write shell-scripts into my currently-running shell and do wacky shit on-the-fly. I can shit like this hilarious. I optimize all kinds of crazy shit at work - and I don't mean like, re-compiling with different compiler flags, I mean I can look at code and tell you what part is making it slow. I work with computers at a level that's totally ridiculous compared to most. I run Linux, because it suits my needs the best, but the Mac is one of the greatest things to happen to computers. Apple has made awesome leaps and bounds in how we interact with technology. Period.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:55 pm 
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Napalm Man wrote:
gimp wrote:
Again to Napalm: The iPod scroll wheel and the iPad and iPhone touch screens are not intuitive to use. Don't put Apple computers user-friendliness in the same boat as Steve Jobs - since he took over they have tended to go for alternatives to the norm over the purest simplicity.



You serious? When I got an iPod I figured it out in about five seconds.

iPhone - touch it. It does something. Pinch-to-zoom. How is this anything but intuitive?

"alternatives to the norm over the purest simplicity" - I'm not sure what you mean by that? Again, it's always been about simplifying.

Steve Jobs went to Xerox to check out their GUI stuff in 1979. When he did, he noticed things like, you could only scroll through text in giant chunks, as opposed to just continuously scrolling through it. The same Xerox machine had a ton of buttons on the mouse, he figured you could create a GUI that only needed one.

I know the mouse button thing is people go nuts over - and yeah, I like having multiple buttons on my mouse. But making computers simple and easy to use is how you get them into the home.

I think the iPad is the new version of a one-button mouse. You wanna do super basic computer tasks without a lot of fuss? The iPad works great. I know a few people that use one as their main computer. For me? Waste of money. For them? It's great.

The guy knew how to take things and make them great for your average person. I feel like i'm the only one *not* being a fanboy and looking at these things objectively here.

You want somebody to use your product? Make it retard-easy. Done and done.

how can you think pinching your fingers on a touch-screen comes naturally to people? you should see my mum trying to use her touch-screen phone.
the circle on the iPod only detects movement one way or another. a standard joystick button does 8, and a dpad does 4 - how about a 2 way toggle that reverts to the middle? As for the software, it's just folder hierarchy and id3 tagging like every other mp3 player and unlike every other mp3 player you need separate software to put songs on it. Every music playing device has the same buttons on it - you know that circle is just to look cool. They use white to define themselves in the marketplace. They made a new type of laptop and called it something else. Yes they use simplicity for user-friendly interaction - but conventional product design calls for that already. The main thing that sets iProducts apart is the visual iconography and the large availability of product-specific accessories (as opposed to accessories that work for all products of that type).

The fact of the matter is, if you own a computer and a phone you can do more than you can with all of these products put together, and you won't need to buy anything new for far longer than the lifespan of these things.

If they were really simple they'd be cheap, but they're not. They're minimalist, which is entirely different.


Edit: The thing that really peeved me was that he was selling 'keeping abreast of the technological cutting edge' to people, which is not something ordinary consumers need, especially since what it amounts to is the first few generations of the products being shoddy at best.

South Park - HUMANCENTiPAD

edit 2: MATTER OF FACT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune_Pad

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:52 pm 
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tl;dr Steve Jobs turned Apple's presence and image in the marketplace into "Better than Microsoft" instead of "As viable as Microsoft".

steve jobs made apple trendy (perhaps...gimmicky?) on purpose. as far as simplicity goes it has inspired competition that surpasses it, yet apple sales aren't affected.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:35 am 
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Huh, you know what? I just realized I haven't said anything about this yet.

While others might hate on Apple products, or suck it's electronic dick...I'm kind of indifferent to the field.

I will say, however, that I do have fond memories of playing the Macintosh at my elementary school. In essence, Apple products were a big part of my childhood and development as a child. Number Muncher, The Secret Island of Dr. Quandary, Oregon Trail, all were a fond memory from my childhood, and something that I really treasure looking back on as an adult. Hell, I remember when our school got our first iMac, haha. I remember the start to the whole iWhatever series of product names, and that's kind of cool to see the beginning of a legacy like that.

So, I'm thankful for what Steve Jobs and the Apple company did for me as a child. While I will admit that I don't own any apple products nowadays, I do look back at my childhood and see them having a significant impact on my learning and probably helped me become interested in video games to begin with (the Amiga computer we had at the house helped out with that one, too, though).

Also, after like a day or two from hearing the news, I kind of pieced together that Steve Jobs probably retired from CEO because he knew well in advanced that he was dying. I see that as a very noble and responsible thing to do, he set his affairs in order and went with dignity. I'd like to hope that when my time comes, I can go out gracefully, too.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:18 pm 
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I bought myself an iPhone 4 the day before he died (twas my birfday). It's kind of awesome.

But I don't really give a shit about Steve Jobs. He didn't make my iPhone, some depressed Chinese factory laborer did.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:27 pm 
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gimp wrote:
Napalm Man wrote:
gimp wrote:
Again to Napalm: The iPod scroll wheel and the iPad and iPhone touch screens are not intuitive to use. Don't put Apple computers user-friendliness in the same boat as Steve Jobs - since he took over they have tended to go for alternatives to the norm over the purest simplicity.



You serious? When I got an iPod I figured it out in about five seconds.

iPhone - touch it. It does something. Pinch-to-zoom. How is this anything but intuitive?

"alternatives to the norm over the purest simplicity" - I'm not sure what you mean by that? Again, it's always been about simplifying.

Steve Jobs went to Xerox to check out their GUI stuff in 1979. When he did, he noticed things like, you could only scroll through text in giant chunks, as opposed to just continuously scrolling through it. The same Xerox machine had a ton of buttons on the mouse, he figured you could create a GUI that only needed one.

I know the mouse button thing is people go nuts over - and yeah, I like having multiple buttons on my mouse. But making computers simple and easy to use is how you get them into the home.

I think the iPad is the new version of a one-button mouse. You wanna do super basic computer tasks without a lot of fuss? The iPad works great. I know a few people that use one as their main computer. For me? Waste of money. For them? It's great.

The guy knew how to take things and make them great for your average person. I feel like i'm the only one *not* being a fanboy and looking at these things objectively here.

You want somebody to use your product? Make it retard-easy. Done and done.

how can you think pinching your fingers on a touch-screen comes naturally to people? you should see my mum trying to use her touch-screen phone.
the circle on the iPod only detects movement one way or another. a standard joystick button does 8, and a dpad does 4 - how about a 2 way toggle that reverts to the middle? As for the software, it's just folder hierarchy and id3 tagging like every other mp3 player and unlike every other mp3 player you need separate software to put songs on it. Every music playing device has the same buttons on it - you know that circle is just to look cool. They use white to define themselves in the marketplace. They made a new type of laptop and called it something else. Yes they use simplicity for user-friendly interaction - but conventional product design calls for that already. The main thing that sets iProducts apart is the visual iconography and the large availability of product-specific accessories (as opposed to accessories that work for all products of that type).

The fact of the matter is, if you own a computer and a phone you can do more than you can with all of these products put together, and you won't need to buy anything new for far longer than the lifespan of these things.

If they were really simple they'd be cheap, but they're not. They're minimalist, which is entirely different.


Edit: The thing that really peeved me was that he was selling 'keeping abreast of the technological cutting edge' to people, which is not something ordinary consumers need, especially since what it amounts to is the first few generations of the products being shoddy at best.

South Park - HUMANCENTiPAD

edit 2: MATTER OF FACT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune_Pad


See, though, this is where I feel like you're just not getting it. We're not asking "what's the best." We're asking "what's the easiest."

I honestly don't understand how you think pinch-to-zoom is anything but intuitive.

Try telling my mom about tagging files and keeping a folder hierarchy of her music. Dropping the phrases "id3 tags" and "folder heirarchy" into the conversation, to me, shows how distant you are from being an average computer user. iTunes + iPod is far easier.

You present the user a list of songs. They can go up or down. There's no reason to have anything but two directions to go, in this use case.

So, your argument here, if you own a computer and a phone you can do a lot more stuff? Fucking. Duh. Again, I'm not arguing what's best or what does more, I'm asking what's easiest.

Yeah, accessories are product-specific. Um. That's what happens? Is this, is this new? Doesn't this happen with, I dunno, almost every product ever? I know Sony Ericcson's are really cool about all using the same charger cable, and maybe there's a few other phones that do that, but otherwise, this is a pretty fucking stupid argument to make.

gimp wrote:
If they were really simple they'd be cheap, but they're not. They're minimalist, which is entirely different.


Why should simple be cheap? I don't understand why easy-to-use == cheap, when has that ever been the case, with any product?

And they're certainly not minimalist. You want minimalism?

This is minimalism

This is what it's like to use my computer most of the day. There's no window decorations, I do almost everything without a mouse. And that is anything but simple. And I didn't spend a dime on any software, so it's as cheap as it gets.

Apple is incredibly simple and expensive. And there's nothing wrong with that.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:38 pm 
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omg we're talking about design.

this is Minimalism
Image

Image


as for my use of jargon, it doesn't change the fact that that is how data management the magic box works. Every mp3 player I've seen comes with software that automatically organises the music you upload through it - but you don't have to use it.

so anyway, congratulations, you proved iThings are the BEST for the stupid demographic. As far as the stand-alone quality of the products over the competition goes, I think it's a no-brainer. I'd rather buy something that doesn't patronise to me, because as soon as I get a product I'm going to learn more about what they can do and eventually want the things I didn't understand at first. Like shuffle, or a radio, and I shouldn't have to pay for a more expensive model of the same thing just to get something standard that was taken out because it was too complicated for me to use.

And btw, it's called an Aux Out, and every music player but an iPod has one. The only product I have to buy model specific accessories for is my mobile phone. Industries sets industry standards to protect the consumer - when electricity first started getting connected to peoples homes, everyone had their own way of doing it. This meant you could only buy products that worked with the electricity you had. This was deemed to be extremely bad for everyone concerned, and ever since companies have conformed to or defined the way the industry runs.
This isn't like going from the record to the cd. This is diversification - and it's not getting us anywhere.

Image

edit: on an unrelated note, why would you want to hold a touch-screen against your ear?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:18 am 
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gimp wrote:
so anyway, congratulations, you proved iThings are the BEST for the stupid demographic


Jesus fucking Christ have you not been reading a god-damned fucking thing I've been writing this whole fucking time?

Napalm Man wrote:
Apple, under Steve Jobs, led the way at figuring out how to take awesome technology and make it usable for the normal person.


Napalm Man wrote:
Are they arguably taking advantage of people not-so-good at computers? Probably. But, anybody I pay to change my oil is taking advantage of me not really getting cars all that much, which is fine. I don't wanna fuck around with cars, I wanna throw money at somebody and have it just work. Same idea.


Napalm Man wrote:
You want somebody to use your product? Make it retard-easy. Done and done.


This is the whole fucking idea.

Also, you're claiming people not good at computers are in the stupid demographic? That's, that's kind of mean? Like, I'll be honest man. I'm far better at computers than you'll probably ever be. Period. But I don't think you're part of the stupid demographic because you use Windows.

Line-level out - like I said, I haven't been trying to argue these are the best products. Just the easiest.

EDIT: Yeah, in fact. I'm going to consider this as I've been trolled this whole time. I'm out.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:13 am 
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the stupid demographic = Lowest Common Denominator
"Basically, only some Viewers Are Morons, but we have to write everything exclusively toward them. The end result is that, via Executive Meddling, shows which would otherwise be intelligent and deep are transformed into shallow, easily understood shadows of their former selves."

what rock are you living under where normal people are incapable of learning the basics of computers but can learn* to use touch-screen shortcuts?
you said it's designed for everyone, and that it was designed for retards. same thing. you're implying that average person, the target, is of below-average intelligence, not experience. i think apple computers, the good ones, are for smart people, so your analogy is ridiculous. If i used a computer for things that are retard-easy maybe you'd have a point, but I don't, I use them for running conventional professional media-making software, which cuts unix out of the equation.

i know you're better than me at things i don't care about john. you're a sax machine. But we're not talking about unix or sucking in bed. i don't use a better, harder mp3 player/phone/tablet pc. I use their older, generic equivalents. A stereo, a computer and a landline phone - normal everyday devices.

The fact that you can't even understand that somebody might agree with you on some points and only oppose specific points that you made is an endless source of stimulation, so I guess that makes me a troll, but just because I express my personal opinions along with my points it doesn't mean i intend for you to be so inflamed by them as to completely ignore any semblance of debate.

steve jobs had a big influence on a lot of devices that I, and most people, use all the time. However, while I recognise there is an amount of ground-breaking advances, eg in scaling, portability, and marketing, the products he was responsible for since returning to Apple have not and will not affect what I use or how I use it in any significant direct way. I do not think that said products are superior to the ever-broadening range of alternatives for every type of user. I don't completely disagree with 'retard-easy' (retard is such a subjective adjective), but i do disagree with the idea of that not being influenced by the higher purpose of making a lot of money - a truly simple and universally intuitive portable device (assuming it's cheap, which should be imperative) would be something that everybody would own. The design is stylistic, and is an extension of their broad marketing strategy. The iPod, iPhone and iPad are essentially three versions of the same product, each denying you gimmicks, and features of the others that are usually not expensive or difficult to implement.**


Personally (just personally) I think that being connected to all this technology all the time is a bad thing. When society as a majority decided that being on the phone and driving a car at the same time was such an essential part of being that millions have died from it, it roughly coincided with common sense going out the window. I pride myself on being observant, and it's the equivalent of filling your life with noise.
of course the products do things, but not everything that's been claimed in this thread. the world is black and white, you're always right and therefore I'm always wrong, evidently. i'm labelled as contrary, so you must contradict me.

I'm not introducing some new wishy-washy argument that is purely 'i hate steve jobs', i'm criticising your points. Maybe if I cut up quotes for every point I'm refuting I could be cool like you and miss your points. Then I could quote myself as a response to a quote of a response to the first quote, that would be sweet.

*(not intuit: eg a person from a tribal society can't even recognise 2d images as representations of 3d things. physical movements and touch-screens are not common for operations that are essentially requisite, which use keyboards and buttons. while movements themselves may make an intuitive sense in their context, in the context of a mechanical device there is no obvious way to know what functions you can even perform, let alone how to do it)

**I saw an ad once for a camera with a phone in it. That made my year.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:35 am 
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IF YOU TWO DON'T START BEHAVING I WILL TURN THIS THREAD AROUND AND WE WILL NOT GO TO DISNEYLAND!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:11 am 
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HEY. HEY GUISE. STEVE JOBS GOT CANCER AND THEN HE DIED OF CANCER.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:23 pm 
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That works beautifully with your sig.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Slowpoke says : I love my droid, by my ipad2 = fucking win. It flies helicopters and doesn't afraid of anything.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:15 pm 
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is that one of them new fangled techno tampons?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:37 pm 
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LocrianDm wrote:
Slowpoke says : I love my droid, by my ipad2 = fucking win. It flies helicopters and doesn't afraid of anything.

Oh yeah, i know that one, that's the one you can control with your mind right?

Image
looks like condensation is a side effect, hope it's water proof.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:45 pm 
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gimp wrote:
LocrianDm wrote:
Slowpoke says : I love my droid, by my ipad2 = fucking win. It flies helicopters and doesn't afraid of anything.

Oh yeah, i know that one, that's the one you can control with your mind right?

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looks like condensation is a side effect, hope it's water proof.

ITT: iPad2 tech demo gives Steve Jobs cancer.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:55 pm 
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there's a exclusive app for i[product] that controls a toy helicopter, I bet it's fun for a bit, but like most rc toys, it'll collect dust in a month or so

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Also, really hope the soundtrack CD for the movie is the stuff from the actual movie, because this might be the first soundtrack I've actually bought from a movie since like...fucking Pokemon The First Movie. Yeah, I bought it, I was like 12 when it came out, big whoop, wanna fight about it?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:17 am 
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Blackman! wrote:
there's a exclusive app for i[product] that controls a toy helicopter, I bet it's fun for a bit, but like most rc toys, it'll collect dust in a month or so

People have been using computers to control things remotely for decades, technically any web-enabled phone can be utilised for that purpose.

http://projectearthrover.blogspot.com/

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New project, new blog.
Although I still plan to expand Hampture, I have too many ideas to spend all of my time on a single project. This is an idea I've played around with for years; a telepresence robot that you can control over the internet, stationed in the middle of a forest, using a solar panel/battery pack combo to keep the robot charged as well as the mobile 3G/4G hotspot that provides connectivity.

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What if you could explore a deep forest at work? Or between classes? Would you draw what you see? Do battle with squirrels? What if multiple people could explore the woods together, via their own separate robots? Would you form expedition parties? Pester racoons? Challenge bears? The potential here is pretty obvious, I think.

True to my word, I completed Hampture with your generous support. I did the research, assembled the components and the end result was everything we all hoped it would be. If you support this project, rather than simply witnessing the fruits of your contributions, you'll be able to directly interact. Everyone involved will be able to log into one of several robots and go on grand adventures in the great outdoors.

So let's get started, shall we?

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