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 Post subject: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:16 am 
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fuck it. i'm just going to make my own thread.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/26/t ... m_on_cispa

call me a crackpot and a liar all you want.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/news/what ... aks-reveal

mock me for having a lack of proof; of which no amount will suffice.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/26/obama_j ... singleton/

continue believing we have a governing body that even begins to give a fuck about the interests of its citizens

some of you are parents now. think hard about the world we will leave behind. about the example we are setting.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:22 pm 
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While I certainly agree that the average citizen is becoming increasingly disenfranchised by the constantly expanding power of corporate interests in our system of government, I also think it's a gross oversimplification to simply say "they're stripping away our liberties!" while pointing a vague finger at the chief executive, or even at congress. More specifically, I don't think you're a crackpot, but you recently posted a video of Ron Paul, who is a certifiable crackpot, trying to do just that, and I think it's worth noting that most of the prominent figures out there right now supposedly concerned with the violations taking place on American civil liberties support LESS regulation and FURTHER expansion or corporate interests.

That said, fuck. We're fast approaching a point where corporations and unborn fetuses will have more rights than the average citizen, and that terrifies me.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:26 pm 
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S1eepy wrote:
fuck it. i'm just going to make my own thread.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/26/t ... m_on_cispa

call me a crackpot and a liar all you want.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/news/what ... aks-reveal

mock me for having a lack of proof; of which no amount will suffice.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/26/obama_j ... singleton/

continue believing we have a governing body that even begins to give a fuck about the interests of its citizens

some of you are parents now. think hard about the world we will leave behind. about the example we are setting.


Look man, here's the thing.

Your ideas aren't always necessarily crazy, and there are things I agree with. I'm this close to deleting my facebook account over all this CISPA garbage. I, too, don't want to be reliant on my car - I would *kill* for decent public transportation to and from work, or some alternative method of travel. I looked really, really hard at getting a solar-powered scooter once.

I'm not against ya here or anything like that.

It's your presentation of the ideas that drive me nuts. Firstly, these usually get brought up in threads where it's inappropriate. Like the car thread - dude just wants to buy a car. His goal isn't to try and change the world. Maybe he'd like to somebody, maybe not, I dunno - but that's not the bridge he's trying to cross.

That's not to say you can't talk about these things - it's totally fine to recommend "Hey, have you thought about an electric/hybrid/what-have-you," which you did - but this brings me to my next point.

Oftentimes, man, when you bring up an idea, you get incredibly aggressive and very condescending. Such as the car post, you postulated that you think it's retarded to use gasoline as a fuel these days. That's not so bad - but it definitely comes off a little condescending. And this sort of plays into the next point -

The next point is, oftentimes you get really derailed. Back to the car thread - next post suddenly went into "how fucking sad are we?/what narcissistic cowards" and all that jazz. Suddenly, it wasn't about cars anymore. And you were speaking in a "I look down my nose on thee" tone. When you state "we" in a conversation I'm participating in, I assume you're including me. Maybe this actually does make me narcissistic, I dunno.

The last bit is, you present these kind-of vague ideas, without any real great definition to them, and without a real call to action. "some of you are parents now. think hard about the world we will leave behind. about the example we are setting."

OK, so, I'm thinking about the world. Done, I've thought about it. So what do you want to happen? Do you want us to call our congresspeople about CISPA? Do you want us to push for legalizing pot? Should we be doing something about this Bradley Manning dude?

If you think you find a problem with the world, tell me why it's wrong and what steps I can take to fix it.

So sum it up, 1) you go off-topic really fast, 2) you're really condescending about your opinions, 3) you indirectly perform name-calling, 4) you don't even state what you want to happen.

It's the condescending thing that really pisses me off, I'll be honest.

In fact, shit. I'm super pissed and don't even wanna finish this.

I suggest you take some time to think about the actions you're performing and how it affects those around you, including the internet. You're making it so that you're the one getting in the way of spreading your own ideas (which again, aren't necessarily bad).

You need to learn how to communicate your ideas in an effective manner, otherwise you'll spend your whole life defending yourself instead of promoting your ideas.

-John

EDIT:
Shit, look at the car thread, actually. It's a great example of letting your attitude and such get in the way.

We both suggest alternative-fuel cars. You say electricity, I say vegetable oil - both of these are fine ideas.

We have similar reasons: you don't want to support gas companies, I don't want to spend money on gas (not quite the same, but close).

Where we diverge is this:
I state "I think you could look at running on vegetable oil. Here's the high-level plan (buy this and buy that). It'll probably cost roughly X dollars. A benefit is you can still run diesel if/when you have to."

You state "If it's available in your area, get electric. Spending money on gasoline is retarded. Also, an electric motor has a lot more torque."

Mine is "here's my idea, here's a way to do it, here's how much it might cost you, here are the pros." There's a pretty serious chance somebody could read that, get interested, and do some research/ask questions.

Yours is "Here's my idea, you're retarded if you don't do it, something about torque."

And they're nearly the same idea - our core idea is "stop using gas."

But instead of helping him better understand your idea, you (indirectly) insult him, then state a fact about torque. I'm not sure what torque is, nor do I know if/how that helps me in anyway. Does having more torque make me go faster? Does it help me save gas?

I'm not trying to say "Hey lemme play the dumb user," I'm legitimately and honestly asking those two questions. I really don't know what having more torque does.

So, that's the thing, man. When you present ideas in an aggressive, condescending manner, of course you'll get called a crackpot.

If you make people want to listen to your ideas (by appealing to some aspect of that person), you'll do a lot better.

Instead of "your government is fucking you and you don't even know or care" you could go with "man, I'm concerned about some of the things our government is doing - they wanna make it so Facebook won't get in trouble if it turns over personal information about you to authorities. I think that violates our rights."

That's, that's it I guess.

-John

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Right. I think you're (Sleepy) taking for granted that just because most of us operate "within the system" to some capacity, we must either entirely approve of it or be ignorant to the problems around us. Like I said, I think it's a gross oversimplification to just say "things are shitty and you're getting screwed, therefore the government is against us and participating in this culture in any capacity is reinforcing that". I mean, I consider myself fairly radical, and I'm all for cultural revolution, social upheaval, etc. I think the U.S. is long overdue for another "children's rebellion". I just also know that the reason the counter-culture movement of the 1960s failed, at least on some levels, was because it was very short-sighted. It said "things are fucked up and we don't want to be a part of this" but didn't really offer a solution besides "drop out of society, do a lot of drugs, and hey, 'free love' should probably be a thing", which, I mean, is NOT a terrible ASPECT to have in a social movement, but is not really enough in and of itself.

My biggest issue is that you sound redundant anymore. I'm in pretty close to total agreement with you in terms of what's shitty about our country (and really a good chunk of Western culture) anymore, I just think you're sort of, to agree with Napalm, condescending when you rant about it as though we're all short-sited fools who don't also see these things. I do see these things, and I have big problems with them, and am very interested in what I can do to deal with them. I just also still have to live my life, and don't have that big of an issue doing so within the confines of my society. The fact that my government and the general mentality of people in my culture promotes a lot of ideologies and behaviors I find repugnant doesn't change the fact that I live in this society and more or less enjoy doing what I do within it. I would like for things to be better, and I worry about the direction things are headed, but I also don't really think standing on a soap box in the streets screaming about it does anyone a lot of good (I'm speaking figuratively there). If I can live my life to the best capacity I can in the society I'm in while at the same time being aware of its flaws and working towards something better, I don't think that's ignorant or sheepish of me.


Edit: It's not terribly easy to convey tone on a forum like this, and I also know that when I get into something like this my tone can seem more harsh or pompous than I intend, so as a disclaimer I'm going to point out that I like you, Sleepy, and I enjoy your perspective on things, and I'm not like, trying to call you out or be terribly critical of you or anything like that. Just pointing out that you might be assuming less of some of the people you're ranting to here than what is actually the case, in terms of how we've thought about things.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Neskimities, Neskimities.


We all are totally fucking nuts. Let us remember that we hang out at a website about a video game band.

That being said, we must remember at all times that each other is not the enemy, and just because we live in a system does not mean we like it.

Hell, I run a technology corporation and I'm a far-left socialist.

Let us be respectful and separate the idea from the person.

BROS 4 LYFE

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Right, like Morte is saying - it's not like we're all short-sighted fools who don't know how we're being fucked.

Shit, I have my thing that I'm crazy passionate about, and honestly - I do think you're all short-sighted fools over this one. But I certainly don't tell you guys that. Lemme get into this for a second:

I firmly believe that if you're not using open-source software, you're crippling innovation and technology. Propietary software is horrible, and it shouldn't exist. Everybody who's using non open-source software is getting totally fucked. It's why I run Linux.

I believe propietary software (Windows, Mac OS) is inherently bad, and I refuse to deal with it/touch it. I have a policy that I never, ever help friends pirate software, not because I think piracy is bad (shit, I steal so many movies/music), but because I think propietary software should not exist, period.

I do recognize that it exists, though, and yes, I do use some - for instance, Minecraft. But I do it because I want to support people who create any software for open-source OSes - if I can send money to a dude that creates software for Linux, maybe somebody he'll think about making his stuff open-source, who knows. But that's a consious decision to concede a little bit for what I view is a greater good. Also, Minecraft is fun - I'd be crazy not to play it.

And, I'll get really honest here for a second. And when I say honest, I mean it - I've never told anybody this before --
I know most of the users of this forum use pirated Photoshop, pirated Windows, etc. And I totally look down my nose at that, on the inside. I see it happening, and I'm legitimately disgusted, and I don't understand how people live with themselves like that -- because if you pirate propietary software, that means you honestly don't care about what I think is a very important issue. In the various art threads, I see people posting art that I know was made using pirated, propietary software, there's a part of me that doesn't even want to participate, because I disapprove that much over their decision to not care about this.

I mean, S1eepy: I'm pretty sure you pirate Windows, and there's a part of me that actually thinks "God, I just shouldn't even try to reason with him. He doesn't care that he's using propietary software, and therefore, he's an idiot." I can't stress enough how strongly I feel about this. But I keep those thoughts to myself because if people knew what a crackpot I am they wouldn't ever listen to me.

What do I do to try and change the world for the better (in my crazy opinion, that is)?

I find ways to suggest open-source alternatives. I do this all the time at my job - I present it as a way to save money, but really, it's because I think using non-open source software is bad.

I go with the approach that, when I find somebody having a problem, I try to find some open-sourcey way to fix it. "Hey guys, how do I convert videos to work on my iPod?" - "oh you should totally try ffmpeg/mplayer with some easy-to-use frontend" - because if I can get somebody to use that, they'll get somebody else to use it, etc. It's why I recommend The GIMP over Photoshop - if enough people start using it, it'll only get bigger/better. I don't give a fuck that it's not as good as Photoshop, I want people to use it, spread it, and eventually, it will get as good as Photoshop, and maybe even better, as people are able to donate time/money to it.

Now, like I said - as much as I hate to see people use non open-source stuff:
* I'm never condescending about it.
* I don't just vaguely tell them how propietary is bad.
* I never bring it up unless it's appropriate.

Instead, what I do:
* I try my best to remain patient with people who don't care about this issue, or don't see it as a big problem.
* I try to show why open source is good instead of why propietary is bad.
* I try to show them how to solve their problems, save money, or whatever, at an appropriate time.

And I'm making real progress towards my secret goal (though I accept that I'll probably never meet it in my lifetime). The goal: all software should be open-source.

I'm getting a fairly large corporation to embrace more-and-more open source stuff.
* Just by using it, that's helpful - we find bugs, report 'em, and they get fixed, and that benefits everybody (and seriously, how cool is that?!)

I get people to try out open-source programs (GIMP, Firefox, Pidgin are really easy to get people into), and when they have some weird Windows-centric problem, I throw them a Linux LiveCD. I've gotten a few people using Linux full-time this way.

So anyways, the point is - I have my passions, too. But I'm not condescending about it, I don't do name-calling. I do what I can to make people want to listen to my ideas.

-John

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:38 pm 
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For the record, I prefer GIMP to PhotoShop and I bought my copy of Manga Studio.

Just wanted that out there...

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:56 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Edit:
not getting onto the whole changing society rant, but on Naplam's Gimp vs Photoshop statement.

I love gimp, I try not to pirate anything unless I absolutely need it (I did pirate windows mainly because fuck paying for something I already own, but had to reformat because other people jacking up my computer), or unless it's porn, anyway; many experts (not that I am one of them) have made the Gimp vs Shop arguments and it's pretty much unanimous that Photoshop > Gimp on all levels. Gimp still can't do some of the things PS is capable of, and the things it can do PS does easier and with much greater results (I did use an older version of PS back in college and my pictures did come out a little snazzier compared to Gimp).

That said, I use gimp for my more complicated photo editing, and MSPaint for simpler stuff. I don't hate Gimp at all, but at the end of the day PS > Gimp hands down.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:14 pm 
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I am with Patrick, not wanting to get in to the political battle. I get in to it enough with my strangely right, glen beck loving father. I am pretty far left in my thinking, politcally.

Now John, I own my copy of Windows 7, I pay my school enough money, so they give it out, same for Office 2010. I think with proprietary software it comes down to how comfortable the user is with the software. I'm sure you realize this, I think you are pretty smart, not trying to stroke your ego btw.

I use Fedora 14, I know Unbuntu is better, I am just use to Fedora plus I can maybe use Fedora to go in to Redhat. I think that the masses are complacent because people get frustrated over new technology/software, new politcal policies are scary and some are difficult to understand.

I think that your ideas to introduce new open source software are awesome. It is most definitely a up hill battle.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:48 am 
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My "copy" of windows is currently technically "pirated" because I need a computer that runs windows and couldn't justify buying Windows 7 a second time. I shouldn't have to re-purchase my software just because I got new hardware. I am very interested in open-source options, but in terms of an actual operating system, I'm just not comfortable trying to work with something besides windows. I wouldn't know where to begin with running Linux, and my understanding is I'd have compatibility issues with a lot of Windows software.

Also, maybe I'm confused, but what is the relationship between piracy and proprietary software, exactly? Like, if I'm pirating rather than purchasing a piece of proprietary software, isn't that BETTER for your goal than if I was purchasing it? Obviously it's not as beneficial towards your goal as if I actually got an open-source alternative, but I'm confused why you have such a negative reaction to piracy, I guess.


All that said, yeah dude, I am VERY in favor of open-source software, and do try to use open source alternatives whenever I can (although this is partially just because they tend to be free/cheap as opposed to their proprietary counterparts).

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:44 am 
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I'm concerned that you guys are losing track of this thread -

The point of my rant was this -- I wanted to present to S1eepy a rant that he (most likely) doesn't care about (a taste of his own medicine, if you will), to demonstrate just how crazy I am on a certain issue, and to demonstrate that yes, while I feel various feelings/thoughts about this issue, I do my best to not get condescending and whatnot. Basically, I wanted to say "look man - I have things I'm really serious about also, and I think your presentation of your ideas is keeping you from making any progress towards your goals."

I understand that my ideals are seen as ridiculous by the general populace.I accept that. And like I said - deep down, I actually do resent people for not understanding. That's the honest truth.

But unlike S1eepy, I don't make that obvious to you guys when I talk to you about it. Instead I try to demonstrate patience and understanding while guiding you guys towards the open-source movement.

I don't want to talk about why you guys pirate vs not pirate, or use gimp vs photoshop, because that wasn't really the point.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:35 am 
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Napalm Man wrote:
I'm concerned that you guys are losing track of this thread -

The point of my rant was this -- I wanted to present to S1eepy a rant that he (most likely) doesn't care about (a taste of his own medicine, if you will), to demonstrate just how crazy I am on a certain issue, and to demonstrate that yes, while I feel various feelings/thoughts about this issue, I do my best to not get condescending and whatnot. Basically, I wanted to say "look man - I have things I'm really serious about also, and I think your presentation of your ideas is keeping you from making any progress towards your goals."

I understand that my ideals are seen as ridiculous by the general populace.I accept that. And like I said - deep down, I actually do resent people for not understanding. That's the honest truth.

But unlike S1eepy, I don't make that obvious to you guys when I talk to you about it. Instead I try to demonstrate patience and understanding while guiding you guys towards the open-source movement.

I don't want to talk about why you guys pirate vs not pirate, or use gimp vs photoshop, because that wasn't really the point.


Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Also, I want you to come spend the weekend with me and help me get my computer running open source versions of all the software that I have pirated versions of.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:38 pm 
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looks like they're on to you s1eepy.

Napalm Man wrote:
I actually do resent people for not understanding. That's the honest truth.

But unlike S1eepy, I don't make that obvious to you guys when I talk to you about it. Instead I try to demonstrate patience and understanding while guiding you guys towards the open-source movement.

Maybe it's not obvious to some of us.

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Blackman! wrote:
I love gimp

Aw :mrgreen:


so back on topic, i'll look at those links now I've skimmed the instant drama. i thought you'd all be used to s1eepy by now, fuck.

edit: eh didn't learn anything new anyway. have you got a point to make s1eepy or...? Seems like you'd be better off leaving that post as a 1000 spam youtube comments.

Fallout wrote:
Hell, I run a technology corporation and I'm a far-left socialist.

That. You'd need to be pretty charismatic to stop people looking after their personal interests considering all one person on their own can do is boycott and sign petitions. I'm sure a lot of us do that, too. You could just emigrate, tonnes of people do that. It's not like there aren't better countries than the USA out there.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:50 pm 
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There was drama?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:06 am 
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Best way to not be mad at the system is to join it and make it better.

But I digress....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:15 am 
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i think now were getting somewhere.

why i present in the way i do is exactly that. i want to be thought of as a crackpot. i don't want respect, clout, acclaim, nothing for the ideas i choose to present. i don't expect any form of immediate response with my frantic and overtly fiery postings. my chief tool is doubt. casting doubt at every facet of a situation. i am intentionally a bit inconclusive.

i don't tell you how to fix anything because i am not the smartest person in the world. that isn't for me to decide. its not as if i can say "oh, this here is your problem. replace the fuel filter." this isn't a mechanical problem i am addressing. it is a problem with our culture. thats not something anyone should be able to tell you what to fix. the only real solution is to look inward, recondition yourself, know your true ideals, and stick strongly to them. the solution is everyone doing what they think is best; without being repressed.

i'm honest to the degree that i am because i'm not afraid of what people might think of me. i'm ok with being the "bad guy" from time to time. the antagonist. the agitator. sort of like the chemists stir bar. i don't like to hold back. i don't use omission to covertley pass my ideas across. believe me. i know full well how much more effective i could be using more manipulative methods. i choose not to. i choose the hard way; to not use the tools we are currently being subdued with. its about integrity, honesty, and being in command of fear. and that is what i feel will lead our civilization to the optimum solutions. manipulation means you want to see your explicit ideas used. which is good and fine, but with something like this there needs to be as many aware minds considering the situation as possible.

oh, and by the way. when i use "we" i include myself. i include everyone. because, frankly, i think we all have a long way to go yet. the insults you feel in such statements are true admissions to yourself. its a negative self-assessment being projected onto the speaker. taking a long look into the figurative mirror is one of the most painful things a human can do. it hurts so much that most people go their whole lives without ever realizing themselves. its an important step though. to realize ones self is to then be in control of ones self. to be self-directed in your own psychological evolution. the ability to program your psyche. those who can not cross this bridge will be left in the dust over the years to come. to this day, i still feel like a narcissistic coward in certain situations. and as far as i have walked this path; i know i still have work to do.

@taste of my own medicine: honestly: i love that post more than any other you've made that i can remember. i admire your convictions. i also use pidgin and push it across on people. when i do a format or a new build it is one of the programs i include. if you compiled a list of open source alternative programs i'd very much like to see it. i do appreciate your honesty. that level of openness, the willingness to show what you fear is unsightly, is one of the rarest things to see in our society. a contrast to the cloak and dagger attitude that is the norm.

@nameless: don't read if you don't want to. there are strong words flying around everywhere in here, but i don't sense any hostility. don't be so quick to hide from new ideas. neither should you accept them all as truth without your own investigations.

@locrain: i wish that were the case, but i feel that you're overlooking something. i don't think "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" will fix much of anything. to reach the upper-tier, the section that makes our decisions as a society, manipulation, taking advantage of unsuspecting people, and other unscrupulous tactics are a requirement to attain such heights without being born into them. a system which has such actions as a central part of its functioning can not be made better. it need be replaced.

to quote Albert Einstein:
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep."
"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character."
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

@sipdey: oddly enough: i kinda like glenn back. he's a bit stuck in his ways, but every now and then he says something that really surprises me.

which leads me to. . .

@morte: how is ron paul a certifiable crackpot? i've seen him speaking quite a bit. would you be willing to elaborate on this? obama seemed really good too until he turned out to be a fuck-ass puppet with zero intention of sticking to his word.

@napalm again: torque is the pivot force of a fulcrum. higher torque means you can move more weight faster. as it pertains to vehicles: in a truck higher torque is a factor in hauling larger payloads:: to a speedster higher torque means faster acceleration. when i say electric car: this is the vehicle i'm talking about:

not some limp large scale RC car.

this thing crushes in the acceleration department.

electric are superior to gasoline in nearly every category when build by someone who is actually serious about advancing the automotive industry.
toyota? bmw? the rest of the big manufacturers? they aren't serious. they're making a show of it.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

back to my point: i say exactly what i want people to do and point toward the path to solving our generations problems so that the next may have a better future in my OP. its my last statement. i want people thinking more about the world they live in. you can say you are all you want, but until your own thoughts turn into your own actions: you're not thinking enough. what you are doing is still superficial. in the case of napalm and open-source software: surprise surprise, you get a big gold star here. seriously. not everyone can fight every battle. the fact that you're even fighting one, let alone a good one, is worthy of praise. i'm not fucking with you here. it makes me really happy to hear about it.

more later.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:51 am 
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S1eepy wrote:
back to my point: i say exactly what i want people to do and point toward the path to solving our generations problems so that the next may have a better future in my OP. its my last statement. i want people thinking more about the world they live in. you can say you are all you want, but until your own thoughts turn into your own actions: you're not thinking enough. what you are doing is still superficial. in the case of napalm and open-source software: surprise surprise, you get a big gold star here. seriously. not everyone can fight every battle. the fact that you're even fighting one, let alone a good one, is worthy of praise. i'm not fucking with you here. it makes me really happy to hear about it.

more later.

thanks buddha

goodbye horror-thread.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:43 pm 
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My issue with Ron Paul stems from the fact that so many people in my generation seem to view him as something other than what he is, and he seems to indeed sell himself as something other than what he really is. Notably, he tries to present himself as a libertarian championing individual liberty despite taking the typical Republican stance on quite nearly EVERY social issue apart from Marijuana legalization. Honestly, I've had friends get mad at me and tell me I'm oversimplifying things when I say "college students only like Ron Paul because he opposes Marijuana prohibition", but I sort of think that's true of like, 90% of his supporters under the age of thirty.

Ron Paul is opposed to gay marriage, pretending it's part of his "small government" stance by saying that he just doesn't think it's the government's place to make decisions on marriage despite the fact that right now the government is doing exactly that by NOT allowing gay marriage. He is notably pro-life, and while he'd be perhaps less likely to push a pro-life agenda than other Republicans, he still certainly would not do anything about the increasing erosion of Roe V. Wade by the GOP. He's anti-immigration, and beyond that just being notably at odds with his supposed "individual liberties" platform, like the vast majority of people who oppose "immigration" I get the distinct impression that it's really just that he doesn't want more Mexicans in our country. He doesn't exactly have a good record when it comes to racial issues.


Basically, I can't stand Ron Paul because all he does is stand on his platform and shout things about individual liberty and revolution and how the American people have been victimized by our government for too long when in fact he is on almost all accounts a very typical Republican candidate. Oh, and he opposed the war, something he likes to pretend plenty of other Republicans and the bulk of Democrats did not. He is, in theory, opposed to our high military spending in general, but considering the ties our military has to private enterprises at this point I don't see much that he'd be willing to do about that without betraying his "deregulation" platform which for some reason idiots think will fix the economy.


Hell, he's kind of a poor man's Ralph Nader. Or, more accurately, a Republican trying to hide his real tendencies by wearing a Ralph Nader costume sometimes and at other times pretending to be a libertarian, which is schizophrenic and senseless in almost any context. I'm sort of surprised I never see you posting HIS stuff, Sleepy. I voted for Nader in 2008 (mostly because I live in Illinois and wasn't exactly worried about McCain winning in my state, but partially because I genuinely found him to be the most appealing candidate, even if he had no chance of victory), and I will profess my support of that man until the day he dies (which...probably won't be too long from now. He's like, eighty or something). If you want a fringe candidate who truly has the people's best interest in mind, you can't do much better than a consumer advocate. The things he has to say about military spending, corporate lobbying, and the role of corporate America in our government are pretty spot on. He's also become essentially a bad joke in politics because of his campaigns every term, but honestly I suspect that this is partially due to efforts from both parties and the media to portray him this way and hope Americans don't take him seriously. He also gets a bad reputation because he supposedly "spoiled" Al Gore's election; that is, Gore probably would have won the presidency in 2000 had Nader not run and taken a surprisingly high number (I think something approaching 3%) of the vote. Which is unfortunate because it's hardly Nader's fault that our election system works in such an archaic way.

But, I mean, I'm not here to sell Ralph Nader to you. I'm just using him as somewhat of a foil to point out the flimsiness of Ron Paul's supposed platform. The reason I think Ron Paul is truly a crackpot is very simply that he thinks deregulation is a solution to our current economic crisis, as most Republicans or Libertarians seem to, but professes it to such an extreme degree that it just seems ludicrous. Notably, he would, ideally, see the removal of the departments of Education and Energy (the second of which should raise some warning bells for you, Sleepy). He has said that he is opposed to the concept of public schooling, and would like it if all of education, from an elementary level through to college, was privatized, adding that "not all citizens need to go to school" (the implication being that "citizens who can't afford an education don't deserve one). I feel like I don't need to explain why having our citizens' entire education be controlled by private enterprise is a bad idea in a nation where corporations are attempting to seize control of our liberties.

Essentially, I can't support a conservative stance on how our economy is to be run because I find it horrifyingly blind to look at our present situation and say that the solution is to give more freedom and more rights to corporations. I can't see any context under which that doesn't result in less rights for private citizens, and moreover I can't understand how someone can see what corporations are doing, and what has led us to our present state, and not hold deregulation of our economy, going back to the Reagan administration, wholly responsible. I support a free market, and I'm also familiar enough with the definition of the word "free" to know that unchecked capitalism is not a "free market", it's economic feudalism.


You also mention Obama being a "disappointment", which is a sentiment I hear an awful lot. I can agree with that to an extend; Obama certainly has not made the changes in this country that I'm sure a lot of his supporters, myself included, had hoped for. That said, I think he gets more flack for that than he deserves; he's been trying to do quite a bit, and had to deal with an incredibly uncooperative congress. He's had the unfortunate predicament of being president during an incredibly strange period of time for the Republican party, in which Democrats have for some reason become so compliant that far right extremists seem to be doing and saying things that nobody would have thought would fly. The sheer childishness of how the GOP congressmen have handled any progressive legislature, that is, refusing to sign it or even acknowledge it on principle, is appalling, and while Obama hasn't handled it particularly well, he's also not really as much to blame as people seem to think. It's the tendency of citizens in a country with a chief executive to attribute any problems in government to that executive, and in reality a lot of the blame rests on a combination of the recent extremist movement from the right and the bewildering complacency of the left. It's also important to note that Obama HAS gotten an unprecedented amount of legislature passed, particularly near the beginning of his term (before the Republican upheaval in congress). Most of this legislature was very small-scale bills, but those things do add up.


I mean, I'm not like, a hardcore Obama supporter, by any means. Like I said, I actually didn't vote for him. Even in the primary, I voted for Hilary, not like, because I like her (because DAMN, I don't) but because I saw her as a more likely candidate to get our healthcare system reformed than Obama. I think she would have pushed the issue a lot more aggressively, and either not gotten anything passed, or gotten a much stronger bill passed than the weak piece of legislation Obama's administration ended up with. I'm not sure how I feel about what ended up happening with that; it's better than nothing, which could have been the result, but also still much worse than anything that virtually any other western nation has in place for their health care. Of course, it's also much better than the complete deregulation and privatization of healthcare that Ron Paul would support...


Basically, yeah, our nation is fucked in a lot of ways right now, but I think there are WAY more factors causing that than Obama's presidency, and indeed I think that a lot of those factors are serving to make Obama's performance as president appear much worse than it has been. I am FAR more disappointed in the behavior of Democrats in congress than I am in Obama; their complacency is kind of inexplicable to me.

I also think that the current political polarization in this country is going to escalate into something much more drastic. Notably, the Republican party has lost so much credibility in the past year or so due to treating the primary as a media event to showcase their more fringe candidates that I actually think the current movement towards extremist candidates is going to come full circle. They've become somewhat of a joke, and if they want any chance of having a viable campaign in 2016 (they don't, and never did, have one in 2012. They counted on the fact that winning on Obama's incumbency probably wasn't doable and ran candidates more for the sake of pushing certain platforms than winning the presidency) they're going to need to run someone who doesn't seem like a complete maniac. I think after the inevitable failure of the GOP in the 2012 election, we're likely to see a shift back towards moderate Republicans. Either that or the Republican party will continue ignoring all the signs around them, push for extremist candidates, and complete lose credibility, at which point we might actually see something truly historical.



Edit: I ended up responding almost entirely to the Ron Paul thing, which wasn't really my intention. I just have pretty strong feelings about the guy, haha. I was also wanting to point out, regarding your response to Locrian/the Einstein quotations, that one does not need to conform to a society in order to function and do work from within it. Like Fallout said, he's a far left socialist who is nonetheless functioning within America's current market. I'd imagine that this doesn't so much mean that he's betrayed his principles in order to "succeed" in business as it does that he's found a way to function with those principles in the context of our market, though of course I'd love to hear more about that from him.


Actually, in general, I find the idea of someone with your political views (Bradford) working with (running? I can't quite recall) a software corporation in the present economy fairly fascinating, and I'd in general be really interesting in hearing how that might affect your approach to business.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:48 pm 
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department of energy does concern me, but i'm actually all for privatized education. the swedes handle it superbly. and its not like like public schools are great, or even good to begin with. i honestly think homeschooling with regular socialization is the way to go. want a good reason for why parents are doing such a shitty job? look no further then dumping their kid off somewhere so they don't have to deal with them from ages 6-18. think this has something to do with the majority of parents knowing absolutely nothing about their children?

fuck. its not like primary school teaches you anything but basic math and a whole bunch of bullshit anyway. retards can learn to read and write. teaching an able minded youth english isn't exactly rocket science. have a few county funded tutors available for scheduling as a public service and public school is obsolete . . . . if we ignore the whole "rape you in the ass with an electric knife" job situation we have going on.

honestly; the gay marriage thing doesn't concern me. don't get me wrong. i'm all for equal rights. i just don't think anybody should be getting married. people only bother with it because they either romanticized it in their mind, want to secure what they have with a contract, and/or that it is financially beneficial. i think its archaic.

i'll continue later. gotta run a few errands.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Right, but if marriage DOES exist as an institution, then it's fucked up for some people to be denied it based on their orientation. Personally I kind of don't think it should be a government-recognized concept to begin with, no, but that's not likely to change.

Also, I can see an argument for privatizing education, but NOT in the US. Sweden handles privatized education well because privatization in Sweden doesn't mean the same thing as privatization in the US. Sweden's political leanings are much further left that ours, and private businesses in Sweden can't get away with the same things they seem to get away with in the US. Privatizing education in the US will be nothing but a doorway for corporations to reach our youth; I guarantee you The New Deal would get some interesting spin once it becomes "Pepsi Presents: The New Deal".


And yeah, I am pretty damn unimpressed with how our nation handles public education, but that doesn't in and of itself mean that public education is a poor choice for our country, it just means that we're doing a shitty job of it. The real reason many European nations (I'm not sure about Sweden, but I know this is the case with Finland) have such a better education system than us isn't that the government isn't running it, it's that they put a lot more weight on the concept of education. Being a teacher in Finland is considered a huge honor; most teachers, even on an elementary level, have a PHD. It's a hugely respected field. In the US, we treat teachers like garbage, and treat our schools like a dumping ground. When you pay teachers as little as we do, put them in incredibly overcrowded and poorly managed institutions, and base hiring policies around finding the best ways to NOT pay teachers, you're going to get low quality educators, low quality schools as a whole, and poor educations for your citizens. It's easy to blame the government for this, because I mean, yeah, they're kind of the ones doing it, but private corporations would do it SO MUCH WORSE. Right now schools are overcrowded and teachers are underqualified because our government (and sadly, by proxy, most of our citizens) are unwilling to provide adequate funding for schools. Schools won't hire teachers with too high of qualifications because they can't afford to pay them what they deserve.

With privatization, this would escalate, not go away. Like with anything else that is left entirely to free enterprise in our country, the focus would fall on turning out the largest possible profit, not providing the best possible service. Qualifications for teachers would lower, as it is in a business's best interest to keep its labor as close to the "unskilled" side of things as it can get away with. Schools would remain overcrowded, but would no longer provide some of the basic services they currently provide to their students. Most importantly, if not everyone could afford school any longer, some citizens who, regardless of the actual quality of their education NEED a high school diploma in order to get anywhere would be left with even fewer opportunities.


The only real solution to the issues with our education system is a major change in this country's perception of education. Things didn't always run this way; going back even a few decades, that is evident. During the Cold War, specifically when the Space Race was going on, our country had ENORMOUS respect for our educators. We took pride in learning and gaining knowledge because, dammit, we were smarter than those Russians and we were going to prove it. There was a huge influx of intelligent young people going into the field of education in order to turn out the scientists and engineers of tomorrow, and our country actually really valued things like science and learning for the sake of learning. Eventually this died down, and for some reason or another (not to sound like...well, like you Sleepy, but I suspect the influence of Reagan-era business influences) we embraced a culture of anti-intellectualism. Being proud of ignorance was somehow successfully marketed to the American people, and suddenly we didn't want our money to go towards education, because education was "elitist" and dammit, we were going to "earn" our money like "real" Americans. (I almost put "Americans" in quotation marks as well and then thought I might be overdoing it) The current shittyness of our public education isn't really attributable to government interference (although misguided attempt like No Child Left Behind have certainly done their harm) so much as the apathy of prideful anti-intellectualism of our own citizenry. Privatization won't change that, it will just take the power to fix the problem out of voters' hands. As we stand now, a vast cultural movement would have the power to revitalize our country's interest in things beyond basic vocational skills; with privatization, we lose that power and are entirely at the mercy of whichever corporation owns our schools.

Which I suppose is another reason privatization DOES work in Sweden. I imagine, and I could be wrong having never been to Sweden, but I feel like I'm probably not too far off, that the people of Sweden entertain the notion that an educated citizenry is GOOD for the economy, and that this belief probably extends to those people who are in charge of private businesses in Sweden. With America's present attitude, private businesses tend to prefer policies which benefit from having the largest available number of workers in the "unskilled labor" (which is a bit of a misnomer) demographic as possible because such workers are simply much easier to exploit.


Basically, I don't think the issue with our education system is really an issue with government-run vs. privatized so much as an issue with America's general attitude towards education not being conducive for a well-run system of education. In our present state, public education fails on many levels, but privatized education would fail on a much deeper level because it would actually be actively acting against our citizens' well-being. Ironically, I would be much more open to privatized education if we had a more socialized economy as a whole, but we don't, and I'm not. I don't see much potential for anything to redeem our education system apart from a drastic shift in our cultural perceptions of education, and it is in THAT capacity that our government has failed us, by drastically cutting things like our space program. Privatizing education isn't going to make anyone suddenly start to VALUE education, which is what we need. If instead we took a tiny chunk of that money we spend on feeding the military-industrial complex or subsidizing businesses which failed for very good reasons (I'm looking at you, airlines) and spent it on research and development, and had some sort of real push to promote the great things being accomplished by this, I think we'd stand a chance of saving our education system, maybe. I don't know. Our citizenry might be too far gone at this point, but like I said, at least they still have the power to do something, should they decide to.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:18 pm 
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fuck; i closed the wrong tab.

its sad. the real problem centers are people with such vast interest and such vast wealth that those who would push the paradigm forward are killed if greed can not purchase them. every now and then a dead man laughs last. MLK had the right stuff. however, as you know, i am no orator. my biggest strengths are pattern recognition, information extraction, and manipulation. i'm running into this with one foot. i've done some ridiculous things with the latter. you would be amazed what can be done. and just how easily.

i heard something once
"be the change you wish to see"
if i am in favor of transparency and full disclosure; then i myself must act with transparency and offer full disclosure.
if i am in favor of honesty in business; then i must also act as honest. even if it can be terrifying at times.
ha. i've been preparing for war by locking up all of my weapons.

the system its self is good and fine. the real problem is that we, as a people, are and have been conditioned to be dishonest and cowardly by dishonest and cowardly people who claimed a power that is not theirs alone.

my big push is kinda outside the box. i've tested the limits; i don't really think there are any, but making things happen takes energy. there are active forces beyond the collective understanding. i will attest to the truth of that upon pain of death.

are you familiar with synchronicity?
if not: its usually a small pairing of chance occurrences that share a direct relation to either new information or internal process.
an example would be talking to a friend about 4-leaf clovers; later on while walking you randomly look down after 4 blocks and the first thing you see is a 4-leaf clover.
they aren't every day things.

you can get a feel for it too. i've had days, even weeks, where almost everything that happened was a synchronistic event.
its a bit shaking, but oddly comfortable. hose days are like having flawless timing without any premeditation. you are always exactly where you want to be when you want to be there. on days like this things line up for you. doors open for you.

i know this sounds out there, but science these days makes synchronicity seem like newton's gravity. far stranger things have been verified. idk. these kinds of things are hard to explain. they aren't yet understood by english. so finding a suitable phrasing means heavy use of metaphoric and allusion. i'll go into it some more if there's dialogue about it. i'm tired. i've been awake for 23 hours, and those topics require me to fry my brain just to find words that make sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: time to centralize
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:06 am 
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lets hear what David Lynch has to say:

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:11 pm 
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http://www.therightplanet.com/wp-conten ... lement.pdf

this is the type of shit that makes me refuse participation. your money paid for these. how does that feel?


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