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 Post subject: holy fucking fuck
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:59 am 
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watch this and do your own research into the subject. mega important. it was dumb fucking luck that i came across this, but it's legit.


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 Post subject: Re: holy fucking fuck
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:47 am 
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The Sovereign Citizen movement is very interesting, but it doesn't actually hold up particularly well legally, and involves some enormous misconceptions and logical leaps regarding the constitution. They also have a lot of unpleasant connections to fundamentalist Christian groups, white supremacists, and other militant extremists once you start looking at how they exercise the "rights" they claim to have.

Basically, there's a ton of recorded cases where people have tried to make the argument that they are "sovereign people" rather than "citizens of the united states" and thus avoid this or that law (almost always relating to tax evasion), nearly all of which get dismissed because nobody has been able to find any legal precedent establishing how they think that's supposed to work. The core of their argument is that the people of the U.S. entered into a contract when the 14th amendment was ratified, but that just never happened. Before the 14th amendment, the terms "people" and "citizens" of the United States were used interchangeably and were not specifically defined but were understood to refer to the same thing. The 14th amendment defined this one, SINGULAR status.


tl;dr, these people have been around for a while, and a lot of people get in legal trouble when they actually try to argue these ideas in court, not because of some conspiracy to strip you of your rights, but because this movement is based on a weird pedantic argument about a part of the constitution that's not considered legally binding to begin with, but even if it was provides no definition of citizenship/vs. personhood/sovereignty/whatever they want to call it. Also they're almost all people who have other super problematic political beliefs.

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illblamesum1else wrote:
Etherean wrote:
Also...gypsies are cool! But don't piss them off...or they'll make you THINNER!!!! and then j00 diez

I think you're confusing gypsies with AIDS.


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 Post subject: Re: holy fucking fuck
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:58 am 
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it depends on what you want to take from it.

the speaker is correct about a couple of things that are really surprising. such as with how jurisdiction works in a court room. if the room does not yield jurisdiction to the judge by complying with their requests (such as "all rise", which is a subtle way of garnering jurisdiction) then the people in the room retain jurisdiction over the judge.

also common law does trump federal law. i can reference any number of instances where a couple was granted a common law marriage after living together for X years, then the family tries to refute the will by claiming they never actually had a marriage or civil union, only for those claims to be overturned by the common law marriage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage

everyone believes all sorts of bat shit crazy things. some are more open about it than others. i am open about it, once you go digging you're not going to find much i haven't already mentioned. i am open about it because it is a way for me to challenge those ideas in the arena of debate. now, i'm willing to bet there at least three things you think or believe that i and at least four other members here would believe are bat shit insane.

my point is: if you subject everything an individual has to say to the assumptions you have about their beliefs: you're going to overlook every single nugget of truth. some of the best nuggets i've come across have slipped out of the dumbest mouths i've ever spoken to. if you blindly take everything at face value: you're a retard and deserve punishment for not having done proper research before attempting something which you may or may not have interpreted correctly. that's just a common sense thing. and it's something which i'm certain you'll agree that a staggering number of people lack.

it doesn't matter which groups are waving the flag of an idea. people will distort what they see to be more relevant to them. in the case of some of the groups you've mentioned: of course they would be interested in this subject.

does the speaker being up any affiliation? no. does the speaker inject his beliefs on matters outside the explicit topic he is discussing? no. why even bring it up?
you judged him based on ideas certain people have which are not mutually exclusive to the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: holy fucking fuck
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:33 am 
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Okay but also the crux of these people's argument is a really poor reading of the preamble of the constitution, and it just doesn't hold up to any legal scrutiny. That's my actual point. I just think it's worth noting that most of the people this movement is made up of are the type of people who want to circumvent the law for pretty problematic reasons, but even if that wasn't the case they have no legal claim. The whole "sovereign people" vs. "citizen" thing is just not a thing. It's been taken to court a bunch of times, and nobody has found any reasonable reading that would indicate the preamble is establishing a relationship like that.

The other way you can kind of tell this guy is full of shit regarding the legality of his claims is how he's citing cases. In all five parts of this video, he makes some vague references to people who have successfully used these claims in court, then says you can find the detailed information if you buy his DVD. That's a huge red flag. In contrast, a brief googling will show you dozens of cases where people have made the "sovereign people" argument, all of which have failed due to lack of precedent. If this guy somehow has exclusive access to the legal info of cases where this argument has actually held up, why is he hiding it behind a paywall? It seems shady to me.

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illblamesum1else wrote:
Etherean wrote:
Also...gypsies are cool! But don't piss them off...or they'll make you THINNER!!!! and then j00 diez

I think you're confusing gypsies with AIDS.


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 Post subject: Re: holy fucking fuck
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:29 am 
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you're making an awful lot of assumptions based on things which were never specified. you can make whatever inferences you want; it doesn't change the fact no specifications were made as to sales.

you act like i'm suggesting every word spoken needs to be taken as scripture.

if you want to get into any sort of discussion about a movement: the reason this is a thing for people is because they're getting sick of watching in horror at each successive batch of poor management take it's turn at fucking things up. they want out. prisons are run like private businesses which can lobby for legislation, or blocking legislation which would take away from their business. more and more services are becoming mandatory. checkpoints are being setup. police are being issued APCs. we've wasted many years making iraq worse. our education system is a mess. our right to privacy is becoming nonexistent. do i really need to go on?

people don't want to pay taxes because their needs are not being met or they are being made a willing participant in unconscionable actions. there are other reasons. but people are getting pretty fed up with good reason. management's priorities are ass backwards and everyone else is expected to toil away funding it. you talk like everyone who objects to paying taxes is a psychopath. you sound like a conspiracy nut making sweeping generalizations like that. you try to assert that one perception of a subject is the extent of what all of "these people" believe. on this point i think we both know you're trying to trivialize the deeper issue here by chalking it all up to racist red-neck hillbillies who don't understand the legal system.

everyone has problematic political beliefs; that's why it doesn't work very well. both bushes, regan, nixon, and obama have political beliefs which are problematic too. it might not be racially motivated, but the situation we've spawned in the middle east is close to par for something like that whereby destruction is concerned. i'm not condoning either case, but i am stating that you'd have a hard time arguing that what the bush administration did was not equally destructive as what someone with your definition of problematic political beliefs would have done. we've certainly seen what a couple of people with no sense of loyalty or social obligation can do.

when things are being well taken care of: people don't mind paying their taxes so much. it's when 3/4 of the spending becomes bogus that people really start looking for a way out. so, if anything, you might be able to gauge confidence in the system based on the number of hope vendors (if you catch my meaning) that are actually able to make a living off of the con.

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