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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Rises was about pain, and overcoming pain. Both physical and emotional. Nolan has said himself that if he were to summarize each movie in one word, 1 is fear, 2 is chaos, 3 is pain. I felt like it was pretty clear.

The Robin thing didn't bother me at all. In fact, I kind of liked it. I didn't take it to be that he will now BECOME Robin, nor did I assume he becomes Nightwing. I still assumed he just took over as Batman. I saw it is just a coincidence that this guy's name happens to be Robin, a name which means absolutely nothing to anyone in their world. But as a viewer, I had a little "HA! Nice." moment at it.

As for Bane and the motivation behind his character, I feel like it was his journey to overcome emotional pain as well. I think being excommunicated from the League of Shadows left him feeling like he had something to prove. I felt like he needed to prove to himself that Ra's Al Ghul was wrong in kicking him out by finishing what he had started. I saw Bane's story as a story of redemption, albeit through evil and destruction. Not to mention the mask was dispensing painkillers and anesthetics to keep physical pain at bay. I felt like that's what made Bane interesting, was that in terms of the theme of pain, he and Bruce Wayne were very similar, just on opposite sides of the coin.

My only complaint is with Miranda. And not even the whole character, just that the love story seemed unnecessary. It should have either been flushed out a bit more somehow (not sure how, already being a 2:45 movie) or left out. If it was left out, it could have been just as easy to portray her as a business woman who Bruce trusts with Wayne Enterprise only to be (literally) stabbed in the back. I think the romance was so rushed that that betrayal still would have had the same weight to it had the romance not been a part of the two characters' relationship.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:43 pm 
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I think The Dark Knight could have basically stood on its own with no action sequences, and just had the dialogue. That's how damn good the characters were.

This? Well...it needed stuff blowin' up to make it more interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Fallout wrote:
I think The Dark Knight could have basically stood on its own with no action sequences, and just had the dialogue. That's how damn good the characters were.

This? Well...it needed stuff blowin' up to make it more interesting.

Joker and Dent were the only interesting characters themselves, with Gordon being a close third by the sheer strength of Oldman's performance. Though I think Maggie Gyllenhaal is a more capable actress than Katie Holmes, I felt Rachel was really flat in 2. And as Bats has pointed out before, Batman himself was less interesting. Batman is a much more interesting character when there's more conflict between the suit and the man inside it, and with the exception of a couple scenes, I think Dark Knight was the weakest in that regard. They discussed the conflict between Batman and Bruce Wayne more than they showed it, in my opinion. The story itself in Dark Knight seemed to be pretty disjointed and jumbled, and a lot of scenes could have been greatly altered or even altogether rearranged and you would have had the same movie. (Especially going to Hong Kong to get Lau. I feel like that entire portion of the film was pointless and was there only to throw cool stuff on the screen [and Skyhook WAS pretty awesome] and fill time.) I guess that's kind of the point being the movie representing chaos, but I feel like it wasn't as effective as it could have been and that the first and third movies had a more structured feel to them.

As far as story structure goes, I think 1 and 3 were better. For villains, 2 wins by a mile. I think Bale gave his best performance in the new one, as did Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine.

Don't get me wrong, I fucking love The Dark Knight. It is by far the most suspenseful of the three, and I love a great suspense movie. It sometimes comes across as throwing in suspense for the sake of throwing in suspense, but I'm okay with that if it's done right, and my god it was certainly done right. I will never forget the midnight showing when it got to the scene with the bombs on the ferries. That marked the first and only time I've ever actually been leaning forward on the edge of my seat in a theater, and when I looked around, the entire sold out theater was doing the same. That scene alone will go down as one of the best memories I've ever had in a movie theater.

The biggest thing Dark Knight had going for it was Heath Ledger. His performance alone is why it may always be remembered as the best of the three, and I totally understand that. I think he was the best villain to be put in a superhero movie in a long time. In my opinion, he carried that movie on his shoulders and on his own, turned a pretty decent movie into a great movie. A very entertaining film, but I always felt that it had it's flaws that a lot of people seem to either miss or overlook. Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass and these aren't quite the reasons why I feel it's not as good as everyone says. Truth is, something feels off about it to me, and I could never put my finger on it. Maybe it IS one of the things I've already said. Maybe it's something more I still don't see. But I feel like while it is a fantastic movie, it had it's cracks. Luckily Heath Ledger was the glue to keep those cracks from showing.

I'm not sure how I'd rank the new one in comparison to the other two just yet. I may need to watch it a few more times to really decide, but I personally think Batman Begins was a better film than Dark Knight. But just barely. If I were to give Dark Knight 3.5 stars out of for, Batman begins would have 3.6 or 3.7.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Both of the movies (and really all of Nolan's movies although with Momento and Inception it's sort of intentional) have enormous issues with pacing and cohesion. The Dark Knight specifically feels a lot of the time like the scenes could happen in almost any other order and it would be essentially the same movie. This one was a bit better with that, but it still had huge structural problems. I liked it, but I mean, I REALLY don't get what the big deal is I'm supposed to be getting out of this.

Also, I forgot to mention, but Scarecrow's bit in this movie was really good too. Rises was probably the closest I've ever seen Nolan come to allowing any part of any of his movies to be "funny", which is cool. If Nolan was the type of person who was ever willing to do anything fun, he would have had a scene after the bomb is set and everyone's panicking where Scarecrow is scrambling to escape and tries to run across the ice. :coookieesssss:

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:30 pm 
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I wouldn't say there was an issue with pacing or coherence with any of his movies... Dark Knight just seemed... chaotic. And it may have been intentional, but in my opinion I just don't think it quite worked as effectively as it could have. The pacing was fine and there was nothing incoherent about it, which I think I can honestly say about all of Nolan's movies. Except Memento. Because it's fucking backwards. :coookieesssss:

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:36 pm 
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You didn't see an issue with the pacing in The Dark Knight Rises? Really? The whole thing at the beginning, where it feels like everything from him getting robbed at the party to him becoming Batman again happened in the span of like, two days despite it actually being a few weeks? When Batman shows up back in Gotham and he's like, rescuing two sets of people at essentially the same time and they do nothing to establish which happened at which point?

Also, the scene near the end where Robin Dude is at the bridge with the bus full of kids asking to get through and then they can't get through...why is that in the movie? Like, at all? It adds literally nothing. Before Robin Dude showed up at the bridge it was all hectic because everyone was going to die if Batman didn't get rid of the bomb...and after that scene the situation is exactly the same. It seriously goes from "Batman, if you don't stop this bomb, all these kids are going to die!" to, "Batman, if you don't stop this bomb, all these kids are going to die!".

I don't know. Nolan's movies mostly make me angry, but maybe they're just not really my thing. I sound really negative, I realize. I actually did like the movie. Really. I just had a TON of issues with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:47 pm 
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I thought it was easy to follow. The only part that I thought could have been a little clearer was how long Bruce was in the prison for, but the constant references to how much time they had before the bomb went off put a frame of reference on it.

Also, the plan was to try and evacuate people over the bridge or through the tunnel and get them as far away from the blast as possible in case they werent able to disarm it. Batman's objective never changed. Disarm the bomb. It was John Blake's job to try and get people out of the city, but the police wouldn't allow them to cross. It was never meant to change from "Batman, if you don't stop this bomb, all these kids are going to die!" It was always "Batman, if you don't stop this bomb, Gotham is fucked." Even if the cops had let them cross and Blake got the kids out of the city, and whoever else might have followed, there's still an entire city full of people that Batman had to save. Blake and Selena were simply clearing paths to try and save as many people as possible in the case that Batman, Gordon, and Fox had failed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:55 pm 
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illblamesum1else wrote:
I thought it was easy to follow. The only part that I thought could have been a little clearer was how long Bruce was in the prison for, but the constant references to how much time they had before the bomb went off put a frame of reference on it.

Also, the plan was to try and evacuate people over the bridge or through the tunnel and get them as far away from the blast as possible in case they werent able to disarm it. Batman's objective never changed. Disarm the bomb. It was John Blake's job to try and get people out of the city, but the police wouldn't allow them to cross. It was never meant to change from "Batman, if you don't stop this bomb, all these kids are going to die!" It was always "Batman, if you don't stop this bomb, Gotham is fucked." Even if the cops had let them cross and Blake got the kids out of the city, and whoever else might have followed, there's still an entire city full of people that Batman had to save. Blake and Selena were simply clearing paths to try and save as many people as possible in the case that Batman, Gordon, and Fox had failed.

Yes. I understand why it happened in terms of the movie's internal logic. Like, I followed what people were doing and why the characters were doing that. I mean that I don't know why Nolan opted to have the characters doing that be a scene in the movie when it didn't do anything to advance the plot. If you have a scene where everything in the movie is exactly the same after that scene as it was before that scene, you've fucked up.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:12 am 
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I disagree. I thought it was there to add a little more suspense. Having the plan to evacuate gives the viewers a little more hope that at least some of the people of Gotham won't be blown to bits. And then it took that hope and crushed it. It added a bigger sense of urgency. Once the bridge blew up, my first thought was "Do they have enough time to get down to the tunnel?"

More importantly, I think it was also an important scene for John Blake, acting as a protector for the ones who needed the most protection. He walked right into gunfire to try and help others. I feel like that was a big step towards becoming Bruce Wayne's successor.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:50 am 
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It was pretty awesome, I don't feel like writing much more than that right now. The music-free fight with Bane was my favorite part.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:03 am 
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illblamesum1else wrote:
I disagree. I thought it was there to add a little more suspense. Having the plan to evacuate gives the viewers a little more hope that at least some of the people of Gotham won't be blown to bits. And then it took that hope and crushed it. It added a bigger sense of urgency. Once the bridge blew up, my first thought was "Do they have enough time to get down to the tunnel?"

More importantly, I think it was also an important scene for John Blake, acting as a protector for the ones who needed the most protection. He walked right into gunfire to try and help others. I feel like that was a big step towards becoming Bruce Wayne's successor.



This. Two points I was gonna bring up. It was also to reinforce Bane's words of how hope will be Gotham's poison, but not only for the people of Gotham but for the audience as well. Unless you were a negative nancy, when the army blew the bridge your last glimmer of hope for the few citizens that could have survived should Batman failed; which at that point they pretty much did when Thalia flooded the reactor, should have completely shattered.

Blame pretty much said my thoughts on Blake showing signs of being Batman's successor.

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Also, really hope the soundtrack CD for the movie is the stuff from the actual movie, because this might be the first soundtrack I've actually bought from a movie since like...fucking Pokemon The First Movie. Yeah, I bought it, I was like 12 when it came out, big whoop, wanna fight about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:48 am 
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The biggest credit Nolan gets is making the entire film feel hopeless. Batman gets fucked up for 2 hours. Looks like badass for about 10 minutes and then becomes a martyr with the other 10. Seriously. Everybody gets fucked up. You're brought down, down, and down. Then when you think something positive is going to happen they drag you down further. In the end you get that one singular moment of success that is coupled with a moment of tragic loss.

I enjoyed that kind of a ride. I never expected the final film in a trilogy to be that dark and just completely void of hope.

2 bonus notes: 1) STEELERS! 2) I'm going to see this shit again in like 2 hours. I can't wait to see that fight again. No noise but the impact of punches was AWESOME

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:35 am 
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Something I forgot to mention. Why is it that Gordon could figure out Batman is Bruce Wayne by remembering how he helped him as a kid, Blake can figure it out as a kid just because he sees Bruce Wayne isn't really happy, but Selina Kyle can talk to Batman AND Bruce Wayne about their "mutual friend" and can't put two and two together?

Also why the hell would Gordon write a speech telling the truth about Harvey Dent if he's not going to say it? If keeping the secret is so important why would he write it down? Kinda risky right?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:58 am 
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Also, why does Batman keep killing people? He shot Talia's truck driver with a damn gun, and she died as a result, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:10 pm 
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he also gave Bane "permission to die" even though the real Batman would never do such a thing. Hell, if the Joker started having a heart attack he'd probably pull out the Bat-AED and start electroshock therapy... I guess this was to let the audience know that Bruce was done playing the bat and was gonna off himself.

edit: for a man with a "no guns" policy, all of his vehicles have quite a bit of firepower

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Also, really hope the soundtrack CD for the movie is the stuff from the actual movie, because this might be the first soundtrack I've actually bought from a movie since like...fucking Pokemon The First Movie. Yeah, I bought it, I was like 12 when it came out, big whoop, wanna fight about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Blackman! wrote:
he also gave Bane "permission to die" even though the real Batman would never do such a thing. Hell, if the Joker started having a heart attack he'd probably pull out the Bat-AED and start electroshock therapy... I guess this was to let the audience know that Bruce was done playing the bat and was gonna off himself.

edit: for a man with a "no guns" policy, all of his vehicles have quite a bit of firepower


I think the permission to die was a callback to Bane doing the same for him.

Also^3, when Batman's hallucinating about Ra's Al Ghul and he tells him about the child escaping...if that was a hallucination then it was all in Bruce's mind. How could a mental hallucination tell him information he didn't already have?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Snifit wrote:
I think the permission to die was a callback to Bane doing the same for him.


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I thought that line was pretty goddamn corny coming from Batman, especially since he obviously wasn't going to be the one doing the killing. Also, I kinda wish they would've shown Bane writhing in agony or something after Catwoman shot his ass with the big Batpod gun. They didn't really make it clear that he was dead.

All-in-all, I really don't have too many gripes with the movie. I hate reading what other people outside the NESkommunity are arguing about, though. Is there really a debate about whether Bruce Wayne is still alive or dead? I thought that was pretty clear, as long as you recognize you're watching Batman, not Inception.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Snifit wrote:
I think the permission to die was a callback to Bane doing the same for him.


Shit I missed that hahaha, I guess that'll be my excuse to watch it again

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Also, really hope the soundtrack CD for the movie is the stuff from the actual movie, because this might be the first soundtrack I've actually bought from a movie since like...fucking Pokemon The First Movie. Yeah, I bought it, I was like 12 when it came out, big whoop, wanna fight about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:51 pm 
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anyone arguing over the "is he alive" thing is stupid anyways. They beat you over the head for a few minutes that he isn't dead at all.

"Where is the necklace?"
"Autopilot was fixed months ago."
*HE'S SITTING WITH CATWOMAN*

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Sir Stank a Lot wrote:
Snifit wrote:
I think the permission to die was a callback to Bane doing the same for him.


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I thought that line was pretty goddamn corny coming from Batman, especially since he obviously wasn't going to be the one doing the killing. Also, I kinda wish they would've shown Bane writhing in agony or something after Catwoman shot his ass with the big Batpod gun. They didn't really make it clear that he was dead.

All-in-all, I really don't have too many gripes with the movie. I hate reading what other people outside the NESkommunity are arguing about, though. Is there really a debate about whether Bruce Wayne is still alive or dead? I thought that was pretty clear, as long as you recognize you're watching Batman, not Inception.


That was there for Blackman's benefit.
And really? People are arguing about the end? "Is Bruce Wayne still alive?" Well I think so considering HE'S SITTING RIGHT FUCKING THERE!!
I kind of like that Nolan made an ending instead of pulling an Inception and having Alfred smile but not ever showing what he was smiling at.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Snifit wrote:
Also^3, when Batman's hallucinating about Ra's Al Ghul and he tells him about the child escaping...if that was a hallucination then it was all in Bruce's mind. How could a mental hallucination tell him information he didn't already have?


I've only seen the movie once, and can't remember the exchange exactly, but I didn't think the hallucination gave him any new info. It was just Batman's mind trying to work through Bane's story. He knew Bane was League of Shadows, he'd heard the "legend" that Bane was born in the prison from the other inmates, he knew it was Ra's Al-Ghul's child (which I think he learned from the other inmates? or was this the new info that Ra's gave him?), and the other inmates had already told him about the escape story, so his mind was all like, oh yeah, Bane's totally Ra's kid. Hallucination Ra's shows up in his mind to help put the pieces together, but the hallucination led him to the wrong conclusion, so then you get totally blindsided by Talia's reveal toward the end.

Looks like I'll have to see it again to refresh my memory! :coookieesssss:

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Batman died....so Bruce Wayne could live.

And there we have it. A-thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Nameless88 wrote:
Batman died....so Bruce Wayne could live.

And there we have it. A-thank you.


:applause:

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:21 pm 
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hurrr 2 da durrr

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Knight Rises
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Snifit wrote:
I kind of like that Nolan made an ending instead of pulling an Inception and having Alfred smile but not ever showing what he was smiling at.

Could have gone either way. If you're not an idiot, you'd recognize the location from the scene earlier in the movie and I think it'd be safe to assume that if you see him in that place, suddenly smile, and raise his glass to someone... That Bruce is alive. I'd like to think that'd come across pretty clearly, but apparently not since blatantly showing him is still being debated by some people... I think the only reason to really cut over to the other table is to let the audience see that the girl he settled down with was Selena.

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